Swine Flu Traced to U.S. Factory Farm

I hope you plan (4.00 / 6)

on cross posting this at the evil orange.  It's important, especially after so many were attacked for posting about this connection.  Thank you for this.

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by: Ellinorianne @ Mon May 04, 2009 at 23:54:56 PM CDT

Heh... (4.00 / 6)

I threw up a link there in a comment re: the potential Granjas Carroll connection the first day it came out, and was attacked in under 3 seconds.  Ask our fellow Locavorean and dKosser rossl about that one.  The next day, you and Fish had those diaries up on the rec list over there...

Good luck if you're going over there with it.  I don't need the headaches anymore, myself...

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by: JayinPortland @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 00:18:54 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And mine (4.00 / 3)

had some science behind it and they still poo pooed it.  Now there is one on the rec list and everyone is happy with the science behind it.  

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by: Ellinorianne @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 11:25:34 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm going to take some time (4.00 / 1)

and try to explain why that is. I don't mean to attack, but to express why I saw the diaries differently. I do this with some trepidation, but I think the reality is that everyone you and Jay are upset about (including, I assume, me) are on the same side of the issue as you. We were critiquing a particular assertion, and asking critical questions that were going to be asked, not defending factory hog farms.

Your diary highlighted an article out of the Mexican press where locals alleged that a nasty waste lagoon at Smithfield was harboring flu virus, and that flu was spread by flies to a four year old boy who was at the time the earliest confirmed case.

You added articles that talked in general about the dangers of CAFOs and concluded that indeed, Smithfield was the source of the outbreak.

My sense, reading your diary and several like it, was that people were convoluting how bacteria spread and how viruses spread, were unaware of the different characteristics of flu versus other viruses, and were jumping to a conclusion about Smithfield.

What we said was:

- We stipulate that the CAFOs are horrible and that that particular facility is probably more disgusting than we can possibly imagine. We stipulate that it is almost certainly a health hazard to the people nearby.
- It's early to say that boy is Patient Zero (and indeed, a few days later, he's not)
- flu virus is not generally present in pig feces
- flu virus cannot reproduce in pig feces
- flu virus cannot survive outside of a suitable host (pig, avian, human) for more than a few hours
- flu virus likes cold, dry conditions, not warm, moist conditions.
- There was no evidence that the pigs at this facility were infected with the virus in question, and that would be easy to test, and that we could jump on them in a couple of days if it was positive
- flu virus cannot live in flies, and flies have only a very limited ability to spread flu virus on their feet.

The diary that was praised says that a different but similar strain of the flu virus was found in the pigs in a factory farm owned by a different corporation in North Carolina. The virus caused abortions and sickness in the pigs. The existence of the virus was confirmed by a lab. It talks about pig-to-pig virus transmission and pig-to-human and human-to-pig transmission. It talks about how once present, the packed conditions of the pigs allows viruses to spread quickly from pig to pig.

That diary does not make allegations about the Smithfield Farms operation, nor does it say anything about lagoons or flies. That diary made a much better case about how factory farms, in general, create conditions that could harbor flu virus, and how we need to be paying attention.
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Now, I didn't write this to defend factory farms, but because I think it's important that we let the science pinpoint what actually happened before we pick a victim and start pulling it apart. It damages our credibility when we pick the wrong target and assert links (like the lagoon=flu) that are easily debunked.

What I was trying to do, with my comments, was to provide additional facts and ideas that would help people write scientifically solid diaries about the factory farms, about how a sick pig plus a sick worker could be our source, about where we might want to be looking. Mentioning that there's a farm near the town with some of the first cases is fair, but tenaciously insisting that it must be the source in the absence of key evidence is not.

My concern is that knee-jerk reactions will not only discredit the whole anti-CAFO meme, but also that the regulatory reaction will be the opposite of what we want, forcing more swine into more unnatural sterilized buildings, to keep us from getting flu. When I see people freaking about public health and animals, I've never once seen the animals come out better for it.

You'll have to decide for yourself if I'm in the pocket of Big Swine or not.

Here I am, wantonly disregarding the danger of avian influenza:


As it was, he did a deal with a blancmange, and the blancmange ate his wife.

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by: elfling @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 21:19:24 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Actually... (4.00 / 1)

but I think the reality is that everyone you and Jay are upset about (including, I assume, me) are on the same side of the issue as you.

I'm talking about certain others there, who are decidedly not on our side, on anything.

Not you, and to be honest I really don't know what's going on over there at Orange these days because I hardly ever go there anymore.

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by: JayinPortland @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 21:34:08 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Nice chickens (4.00 / 2)

Over at Meatingplace I was in a discussion about the flu and virus mutation. Someone, a hog farmer aparently, claimed that their production system was better because their animals were indoors and protected from all sorts of pathogens, parasites, etc., while the open air systems were vulnerable to exposure to those same hazards.

The rebuttal I used was that while my animals were exposed to all sorts of biological hazards, confinement animals were exposed to most of the same hazards. Unless someone keeps their animals in a completely sealed building, feeds only sterilized feed, uses only sterilized water, and only enters the building where the animals are housed in a moon suit, those animals are going to come into contact with almost all the same things that ours do.

One of the problems I see with the confinement farms being seen as safer than open air farms, is that now, with avian influenza circulating (I'm talking about the H5N1 strains) in some countries, people have been required to confine their birds indoors. The reasoning being that if you can keep wild birds away from the domestic birds, the domestic birds won't contract a disease.

Regarding how long a flu virus can survive outside a host, it depends on the virus and what the virus is in. In cold water some flu viruses can survive a fairly long time, in manure, under the right conditions, and I'm talking AI virus, it can survive for weeks. The standard response to an LPAI detection in the USA is depopulation and stop movement/quaranteen for 30 days for everything in a certain distance from the detected farm, including live birds and poultry litter. No transport, no spreading, etc. One of the vectors for the spread of HPAI H5N1 in Asia has been the transport of poultry litter infected with the virus. Under the right conditions, the virus can survive out of a host for up to 105 days. CFI sheet on HPAI

Other influenza viruses can survive on hard surfaces for 8-24 hours. How long this particular (2009 H1N1) can survive out of a host I don't know. It'd be interesting to know though.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Wed May 06, 2009 at 06:58:35 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Mine had (4.00 / 1)

nothing to do with the waste ponds or a Mexican article.  Sorry, it was with the Huffington Post article, the pew research and other issues.

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by: Ellinorianne @ Sun May 10, 2009 at 13:00:01 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

AND (4.00 / 1)

I didn't write about Smithfield either.  That was FishoutofWater as well.  Please don't lump the two diaries together.  The article I wrote about did not mention the damn Mexican article.

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by: Ellinorianne @ Sun May 10, 2009 at 13:01:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh geez (3.75 / 4)

I commented and shouldn't have.  Oh well.  I think part of the issue is I'm not as well informed as I could be and I have so much to learn about.  

I got this comment
http://www.dailykos.com/commen...

And then someone arguing with me in the diary regarding California safety laws that the State has no business regulating these issues, it's for the FDA, etc. and that the State can't afford it.

Seriously, my head hurts.

http://www.dailykos.com/commen...

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by: Ellinorianne @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 12:56:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I can do that (4.00 / 6)

will do tomorrow.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 01:49:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

(putting on headgear...) (4.00 / 5)

I'll be there for ya if you're going in, Jill!

:)

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by: JayinPortland @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 01:56:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

hahahahaha (4.00 / 5)

if I post it, I am staying OUT of the comments. Too frustrating, not worth the hassle.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 01:58:16 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Absolutely... (4.00 / 5)

I'll throw you a rec and bounce, myself...

I'll read through them, but I've also learned that it really isn't worth doing the comment thing there anymore.

Rainy days and morons, and all that.

:)

Sent you a book today, btw...

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by: JayinPortland @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 02:05:53 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Caution (0.00 / 0)

Be careful about believing everything you think you see. There are a LOT of problems, falsehoods, in those photos and the accompanying descriptions. Reality is not what you think.

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by: pubwvj @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 17:58:33 PM CDT

For an example... (0.00 / 0)

check on this URL that leads you to Walt Jeffries comment on his Sugar Mountain blog: http://sugarmtnfarm.com/blog/.
He gives an extended discussion of how the pictures (on the blog he is criticizing) are misleading.

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by: DennisP @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 20:13:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's a very good link (0.00 / 0)

It's a sad fact that keeping animals means you will have dead animals. Our small and careful and loving farm had a 50% loss with our chicks last year, between genetics, predation, and a youngster eating something he shouldn't have.

As it was, he did a deal with a blancmange, and the blancmange ate his wife.

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by: elfling @ Tue May 05, 2009 at 21:26:51 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm glad that Walter posted that reply (0.00 / 0)

That's what a lot of people don't understand, is that mortality is a part of all animal ag. We had a die off of chickens on our farm a few years ago. All of the hens who died were between 8 and 10 years old. They died in the winter. I attributed the deaths to a bacterial or viral infection and the extreme age of the birds. Everything dies eventually, and if a predator doesn't get them, and you don't kill them yourself, it's going to be an injury or disease. The older an animal gets the more likely they will come down with something that kills them. Not many just die of 'old age'.

Animals also get injured bad enough that it's not cost effective to treat them. I had a filly that I had to have put down a few years ago. It absolutely killed me because she was out of my Lipizzan mare Melora and by a very popular Andalusian stallion named Regaliz. I was planning on using her as a replacement brood mare for when her mom got too old to breed. Luna was perfect in every way. One day she got in an accident with a gate and injured her stifle joint (think knee in the hind leg). I had the vet I use for major medical out, who examined Luna's stifle joint. She told me that it would cost around $3,000 for surgery, etc. and Luna would have less than a 50% chance of ever being sound enough to even walk unassisted, forget breeding or riding. If the prognosis had been better, I probably would have had her treated for the injury, even though I'm not sure how I would have paid for it, she was a very valuable animal, it would have cost me much more than the surgery to replace her. But I had her put down instead. Oh, I probably could have gotten one foal out of her before her leg went completely south on her, but she would have been either in pain or on pain meds the whole time.

The more animals you have, the more potential you have for deaths for what ever reason. Broilers have a condition called 'flip over'. It's actually a heart attack. The percentage of mortalities, or morts as they're called, is figured into the production model, much as I figure a drop off in egg production from my hens due to age, time of year, etc. I'm sure that there is some kind of percentage that's expected in swine production, be it confinement or open air.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Wed May 06, 2009 at 06:32:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]