Chiapas Diaries: Day 6, Part 3 - The Poster

I'm jumping the gun by posting this now (4.00 / 2)

I've wanted to post this for a long time and can't wait any longer!

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 00:13:05 AM UTC

Succinct... (4.00 / 2)

Meet The Zapatistas!

Although they're a bit off on "people in rich countries live like this."  Except for the traffic, I guess...

Been meaning to ask, btw - do they use text books in the school?  Of course, pardon me if there's a ridiculously obvious answer one way or the other.

;)

How much, if any, of their educational process did you witness?  I believe I remember you said the woman who wanted to observe their educational system was turned down by the junta?

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by: JayinPhiladelphia @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 00:58:20 AM UTC

I'm not sure nt (4.00 / 1)

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 04:21:27 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

What a bunch of bullshit (4.00 / 1)

I hate to call them on a lot of what they're saying but I feel I have to.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 01:51:53 AM UTC

bullshit? (4.00 / 1)

With what do you disagree?

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by: count @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 02:13:30 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Gonna be a long one in several parts (4.00 / 1)

wait for it....

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 02:15:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

2 (0.00 / 0)

"Also, the rich are the minority in every country and they are the ones who want to rule the world."

The first part of the statement I do agree with. The rich are in the minority in every country (be they developed, developing or undeveloped). This is true now, always has been true and always will be true. I say that because rich is a comparative statement. No matter how much one has, there's always someone who has more. Either more money, power, family, etc. The Zapatistas may not have a lot of cash, but as the saying goes, not all treasure is silver and gold. The Zapatistas have, from what I've read of Jills description of them in the other Chiapas Diaries, wealth of community that many of us in the developed world do not have, and will never have.

Compared to someone living on the street I'm rich, but if I compare myself to a lot of other people, I'm not anywhere being rich.

The Zapatistas appear to want to be subsistent farmers. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I'd love to live in a sytem like theirs. But the thing with being a subsitence farmer is that you'll never have a lot of money. The two concepts are mutually exclusive. Unless they were to industrialize (which they seem to not like), and enter either regional or international markets, they'll never produce enough to become cash rich. And by industrializing, I don't mean buying GMO seed from Monsanto and lots of agrochemicals. I don't even mean going to using tractors for tilling, sowing, and harvesting. They could use horses, mules or oxen for that. Actually they'd probably need horses or mules, oxen are pretty slow as far as pulling equipment like harvesters. I'd think that with good management and plenty of equipment, they'd no doubt be able to grow a lot more than they do now.

However, that would require them to shift to a commercial production model. In other words, they'd have to grow specifically for market and grow crops for personal consumption on the side. That ain't subsistance farming. That's commercial farming. That would turn them into entrepreneurs and eventually capitalists. Some of the very types of people they seem to not like.

As to the second half of the statement, that the rich are the ones who want to rule the world, some do but I would posit that most do not. My uncle was a multi millionaire, he didn't want to rule the world. He wanted to take care of his family. I know another fellow who lives a few miles from me, he's a multi millionaire and he's not interested in ruling the world. One of Harold and my dear friends owned a trucking line, also a multi millionaire, not interested in ruling the world.


Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 11:37:52 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Joanne (4.00 / 1)

you're looking at this with a lot of nuance. Not all rich people are bad or want to rule the world. Of course. But they probably have little idea how much of their financial wealth and "stuff" (home, furniture, food, etc, plus the low prices of those things) come from elites around the world throwing around their weight.

Also, while not all of the rich people necessarily want to rule the world, the people who DO try to rule the world are more or less all rich.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:32:10 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I agree with you (0.00 / 0)

as to this -

Also, while not all of the rich people necessarily want to rule the world, the people who DO try to rule the world are more or less all rich.

That is as it has always been. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's a fact of human culture. That's like saying that all sharks are fish.

And I also think that a person has to look at things in a nuanced way, although I don't think that this is too nuanced.

One of the things that irritated me about the statements on the poster is that who ever educated the people who made the poster either intentionally or unintentionally gave the poster's creators half truths, or outright lies and propaganda intended to stir those people up against the USA, etc.

If the misinformation was unintentional, it was sloppy and based in an inadequate understanding of the world, if it was intentional it was morally criminal in my opinion.

It's that kind of bullshit propaganda that gets people stirred up enough to put on suicide vests and blow people like you and me up.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:56:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

1 (0.00 / 0)

Yankee Imperialists: The Phantom Captain
He says: "Mmm and the moment has come that the world is mine and I will be the owner of all." and "Pobrecitos [poor people], you have to die so that I can be at peace."

In addition to Yankee Imperialists lets add Spanish Imperialists, British Imperialists, Chinese Imperialists, Portugese Imperialists, Central and South American Imperialists, and imperialists from every dominant culture in human history, including imperialists and nation builders from the indeginous people in previous cultures in the territories from Mexico to the southernmost tip of South America who have come to power in the past prior to the arrival of europeans.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying that to peg this on 'Yankees' completely ignores human history, including the history of indigenous people in their own country. Regardless of any benefits dominant cultures in Mexico and on south may have brought (speaking to Inca, Maya, Aztec, etc.) to conquored peoples as those cultures' territory spread, the rise to power and expansion of empire always comes at the domination and harm to other indigenous people who have to be conquored, killed or driven out of the territory those dominant cultures expand into.

In trade I see this going on with Brazil and its expansion in agricultural trade, China and its expansion in international trade and manufacturing, etc.  

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 11:06:54 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'd mostly agree with you here (4.00 / 1)

The Spanish did a great deal of harm in Latin America back in the day. And the Mexican elites themselves have done plenty to the poor in Mexico. But right now, and for the last maybe century, it's been the U.S. that's been really throwing its weight around in this hemisphere. I mean, where I live now used to be Mexico and the U.S. took it.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:33:45 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Then perhaps you could give it back (0.00 / 0)

But seriously, I think the US is on the decline as a world power. China is coming up (good thing you speak Mandarin), as well as Brazil.

It looks like it's the US that's throwing its weight around, but in reality it's the international companies that are pulling the strings behind the scenes. A lot of what I see is either directly or indirectly related to international trade. Some of the companies are based in the USA, but some are not, and even those that are, the really big players, are only based in the USA temporarily. As soon as they find a better deal they'll leave, and as far as agricultural trade, a lot of them are setting up in foreign countries to facilitate doing business in those countries. Tyson, JBS, etc. do a lot of business in other countries to sell into those countries' domestic markets. They're finding out, especially with ag trade that it's a lot easier to deal with sanitary regulations in a country if you're already producing in that country.

Give us another 50 years and we'll be like the other european nations, legends in our own minds as we begin the long slide into imperial senescence.  

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:46:44 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I should clarify, I misspoke regarding the european nations (0.00 / 0)

that should read - we'll be like the european nations that were once world powers.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 01:49:21 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You know (4.00 / 1)

Joanne, I was thinking about it....

I didn't post this poster because I agree with it, I posted it to show what the Zapatistas think. I mean, I went to learn about the Zapatistas, not to become one, or to recruit people to join them. I took all of the pics of the poster and translated it because it spells out in their own words what they think and how they see the world. Nobody has to agree with it. I'm certainly not trying to "convert" anybody. All I am trying to do is share with others what I saw.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 07:21:45 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I should add (4.00 / 1)

I was very careful as I typed everything to put all of the translations of the poster in quotes, specifically to show that these are NOT my own words or my own point of view. I would say my own point of view is more nuanced, as is yours (obviously).

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Sun Dec 12, 2010 at 07:22:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I wasn't disagreeing with you (4.00 / 1)

I have no idea whether you agree with any of the premises or agruments posed by the poster. My disagreements were with the arguments and ideas set forth in the poster. I appreciate what you do, and I especially appreciate your efforts in translating, I don't know any spanish.

Didn't mean to offend, just to post my own opinions on the information in the poster itself.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Wed Dec 15, 2010 at 16:39:04 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

no, no offense taken (0.00 / 0)

I just wanted to clarify why I was posting this stuff.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Wed Dec 15, 2010 at 20:25:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

3 (0.00 / 0)

"People in rich countries live like this."

We in the rich countries live like this because our counties are industialized and to a large extent dependant on international trade, and because most of us have moved into cities. Even those of us who don't live in cities are able to live 'easy' lives because of that industrialization and a load of international trade. Almost everything we enjoy, from food production to the manufacturing materials/equipment all the way down to most of the smallest of consumer goods, communicaitons, power, and transportation are due to the benefits of industrialization and trade, most of it international.

If the Zapatistas want to live like this they'll have to embrace that life style, which they don't seem interested in doing.

The Salaried Workers
"Now people think that the employees working in factories is the only way to sustain themselves. Because people now believe that if they don't have money, they can't eat, and for that reason they are forced to work in the factories even though they suffer exploitation."

In the picture: The workers in the city.
They say: "We don't want more exploitation and we want fair salaries."
"We want to be good workers... so that we can become owners of factories someday."
"Viva the workers in the city."

This one seems contradictory on its face. The first part of the quote about the salaried workers speaks to the exploitation of employees (which does happen a lot), but also appears to deride the concept that people have to earn money to sustain themselves. Well, if you're going to live in a developed area/country, you're going to have to earn money. Last time I checked, all the providers of things that people enjoy in a developed non subsistence area don't do barter. They do money. Utilities, medical, consumer goods, taxes, fees, etc. No barter, money only.

The second part praises the workers in the city for wanting to make more money through fair wages so that they can become business owners. Praising someone for wanting to become the thing you deride (business/factory owners)?

Perhaps they assume that the newly wealthy employees turned factory owners will pay their employees a fair wage? No doubt many would, and many would not.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.

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by: JoanneRigutto @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 12:06:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Bernie Sanders (4.00 / 2)

In the words of Bernie Sanders:

Socialism for the very rich, rugged free market capitalism for the very poor.

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by: count @ Sat Dec 11, 2010 at 02:12:25 AM UTC