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Interview with Danielle Nierenberg

by: Jill Richardson

Mon Nov 15, 2010 at 08:57:05 AM PST


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I'm sure you've noticed the many posts by the Nourish the Planet blog, all of which are taken from Danielle Nierenberg's travels in Africa. Many of them highlight wonderful community projects or foods that are bringing food sovereignty to Africans. But what about the larger picture? That's what I wondered. Obviously it's impossible to summarize ALL of Africa in one interview, but I asked Danielle a few questions and she answered, below. (As you'll note in her answers, I was asking her for her own observations and not studied, academic answers.)
Jill Richardson :: Interview with Danielle Nierenberg
1. Can you tell us a little about your background, prior to your whirlwind trip around Africa?
I'm from a small town in Missouri named Defiance (which I tend to think is appropriate!), studied environmental policy at Monmouth College in Illinois, and then spent two years as a Peace Corps Volunteer in the Dominican Republic where I split my time between working with farmers and urban school kids. That experience helped me realize the connections between agriculture and the environment in a way that I hadn't before and then I went to the Agriculture, Food, and Environment program at Tufts University, interned with the Science and Environmental Health Network, and then I began at Worldwatch in 2000. After which I made them hire me ;-).

2. What is the purpose of your travel in Africa, and which countries have you visited?

The purpose of our research with Nourishing the Planet was to evaluate environmentally sustainable ways of alleviating hunger and poverty. Over the last year, we've visited more than 200 projects in 25 countries in Eastern, Southern, and Western Africa talking to farmers, farmers groups, researchers, scientists, policy-makers, NGOs, journalists, aid agencies, and others getting their thoughts about what's really working on the ground-from urban farming projects in Kibera, Africa's largest slum to school garden projects in Cote d'Ivoire. We wanted to do a couple of things with this project: one, tell stories of hope and success in agriculture in Africa. Most Americans and Europeans hear "Africa" and they think conflict, famine, HIV/AIDS and while those issues are definite problems, there are also many African-led innovations that are conserving soil and water resources, mitigating climate change, raising incomes, improving gender equity, and working towards better nutrition. We want to help make sure that these stories are also being told and publicized. That's one reason we like to include so much on the Nourishing the Planet blog and on our diary for La Vida Locavore; second, we wanted to create at least a partial roadmap for the funding and donor communities, helping funnel their investments toward projects that are really working. More and more investment is coming to Africa, after a long drought, so to speak, and much of it, unfortunately, gets wasted or goes toward projects that don't work or that are destructive in the long-term. And while the IAASTD suggested many of the same conclusions we've made in the forthcoming State of the World 2011: Innovations that Nourish the Planet, we're not based solely on peer-reviewed literature, but what we saw working on the ground.

3. What are the main barriers to food sovereignty in Africa, and how does it vary from region to region?
That's a good question, but please remember that I don't claim to be an expert on Africa. I can tell you what I saw on the ground and from that experience the main barriers to food sovereignty are gender inequity and the lack of land tenure. Women make up at least 80 percent of the agricultural labor force in Africa, but they typically aren't allowed to own land. And they don't have access to extension services, which despite the number of women farmers, still target men. Allowing women to have more rights over land and better access to education about sustainable agriculture methods would have a huge impact on not only yields and nutrition, but also reduce deforestation, improve water quality, and increase the number of girls going to school. One woman I met, in Niger had recently begun working with other women at a community garden and her "own" piece of land there had allowed her to triple her income from $300 USD per year to more than $1000 USD and she told me that not only is she able to buy more food for her family, but also send her children to school.

4. Is there any country (or countries) you've visited where the government has taken a particularly effective action to reduce poverty or increase food sovereignty?
Most of the work, unfortunately, isn't being done by governments, but community by community and farmer by farmer. Again, I don't know everything about sub-Saharan Africa, but most countries haven't invested as much as they could or should in agriculture or food sovereignty. I was, however, impressed by representatives of the agriculture department in The Gambia. They were working on helping farmers conserve and protect indigenous livestock, instead of promoting the use of exotic breeds, supposedly high producing breeds, which are promoted by many agriculture agencies in other African countries. The Gambia is recognizing that indigenous breeds have the potential to be more resistant to disease and able to withstand hot temperature, drought, and other extreme weather conditions better than exotic breeds and that they'll be key in helping Gambian farmers and livestock keepers practice sustainable agriculture, while also adapting to climate change.

5. Have you noticed any impact of neo-liberal free trade policies on food sovereignty in the countries you've visited? If so, what?
There's definitely a bit of a perception issue caused by flooding of markets with international products. Grocery stores are filled with processed foods from around the world, from crackers made in Argentina and soy milk from China to popular U.S. breakfast cereals. Local rice breeds are considered 'inferior' in Senegal. But this is starting to change as educational programs come about to revitalize an interest and an appetite for local and indigenous plants and products processed by local dealers, such as the It's Wild brand, started by the Community Markets for Conservation (COMACO).

6. How does the traditional agriculture and cuisine vary from place to place? (You can just give a few examples)
One of the best parts of my job is that I get to try so many interesting and traditional foods-from groundnut soup in Uganda to spiderwiki (leafy greens) in Kibera in Nairobi to millet paste in Niger. One of the "traditional" agriculture practices that is consistent throughout sub-Saharan Africa is seed-saving. Nearly every subsistence farmer we met with shared with us how they collected, preserved, and stored seed from one season or year to next. In Uganda, Edie Mukiibi, a young farmer and educator, is teaching students at 30 schools the importance of collecting seed from indigenous grains, vegetables and fruits and saving them to plant in school gardens. In Mozambique, we talked to a researcher who is helping farmers find better ways of storing seeds so that they don't get eaten by rodents or destroyed by mold or fungus.

7. Have you seen any particularly successful examples of industrial agriculture used to promote food sovereignty in the places you've visited? If so, what?
Not really...what I have seen is interesting examples of farmers getting better access to markets. I think I had kind of a naïve view of African agriculture before this trip-the issue is not that farmers can't produce food. They can-they're some of the best farmers I've seen in the world. The problem is that they often either can't get to a viable market for their crops because of bad roads or long distances or when they do get their maize, or sorghum, or rice to a market the price is so low it wasn't worth the trip in the first place. But through projects like USAID's PROFIT program in Zambia (which I was really skeptical of, at first), farmers are engaging directly with buyers and getting better prices for their crops.

8. Have you seen any particularly successful examples of agroecology used to promote food sovereignty in the places you've visited? If so, what?
We visited with Richard Haigh, founder of Enaleni Farm in Durban, South Africa. he raises endangered Zulu sheep, Nguni cattle (a pest-tolerant breed indigenous to South Africa), and a variety of fruits and vegetables, putting emphasis on the biodiversity of the continent. Richard's farm is an example of how agroecological methods work. He practices "push-pull" agriculture, using alternating intercropping of plants that repel pests (pushing them away from the harvest) and ones that attract pests (pulling them towards the harvest) to increase yields. He also uses animal manure and compost for fertilizer. Also in Kibera, Kenya, women we met are raising vegetables on what they call "vertical farms." But instead of skyscrapers, these farms are in tall sacks filled with dirt. The women grow crops in them on different levels by poking holes in the bags and planting seeds. During the food crises of 2008 when no food was coming in or out of the slum these women were still able to feed their families and communities.

9. What are land rights like in Africa? Do families have land, and if so, how much? And is the land good for agriculture or does it present challenges like poor soil or steep slopes? (You can give a few examples...obviously it'd be impossible to answer about every place you've been)
This is a complicated question and obviously differed from country to country. In Nairobi, Kenya we visited a large slum where men and women are farming land that isn't theirs, but owned by the Kenyan Social Security Administration. They are allowed to farm the land through an informal arrangement but have n legal right to the land.  While this isn't the case everywhere, there is also the matter of the increasing trend of large scale land acquisitions in Africa. The debate on this issue is still ongoing but there is a great fear that the 'land grabs' deny land for local communities and complicate land tenure, taking land claimed to be idle that really belongs to indigenous communities. And yes, farmers are fighting battles against increasingly degraded land, like those in the Uluguru Mountains of Tanzania, where repeated plantings have depleted the nutrients in the soil leaving it nearly barren and vulnerable to erosion.

10. Do you see a lot of pesticides used in the countries you've visited? And if so, are people educated about the risks involved and equipped with protective clothing? Have you heard of (or observed) any acute illnesses or deaths due to pesticides in the places you've visited?
There is definitely still use of pesticides, but they are often too expensive for farmers to afford. We did meet with many groups who don't use them purposely, such as Songtaab-Yalgré in Burkina Faso, a woman's cooperative that processes and exports organic shea butter  using only agro-ecological practices. The World Vegetable Center in Arusha, Tanzania is working to breed vegetable varieties that do not need pesticides, which is better for both the environment and the farmer's wallet.
In Kenya we visited the Sher Karuturi flower factory, and the week before we arrived, four women were hospitalized for chemical exposure. Apparently they were sent into the 35 degree Celsius greenhouses too soon after chemicals, mainly pesticides, were applied to the flowers. But for the most part, we're told, the conditions are better at this farm than some of the other farms--workers are provided a stipend for housing, there's a school located on site, and the salaries are higher than what employees of other farms make, because of their union. Kenya's Solidarity Center is working with them to conduct trainings and strengthen their ranks despite intimidation and pressure to avoid unions.

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The good - or bad - news for Dani (4.00 / 2)
is that I found her answers so interesting, it makes me want to ask more questions. Anyone else crave a follow-up interview? If you've got questions, ask 'em here. She's got internet access (from Nigeria!)

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

Oopsie (4.00 / 2)
I guess she won't have internet much from Nigeria. But she does have it now (she's not in Nigeria yet).

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
possible interview (4.00 / 2)
I would love love love an update about Will Allen's progress in South Africa and Zimbabwe.

Will Allen wiki

Growing Power, Inc.


[ Parent ]
Huh, how about that... (4.00 / 1)
Never had any clue Growing Power was in Africa, myself...

[ Parent ]
that'd be awesome (4.00 / 2)
remind me when i'm back from Mexico and I'll ask. He's hard to get in touch with via email from my experience.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
Maybe Dani (4.00 / 2)
could swing by? (evil grin)

I understand you. I looked, didn't see any blogging, no Clinton Fund progress report, etc. I'm sure he's busy, but maybe somebody on his staff is reading Dani's reports.


[ Parent ]
Bad roads... (4.00 / 2)
The problem is that they often either can't get to a viable market for their crops because of bad roads or long distances or when they do get their maize, or sorghum, or rice to a market the price is so low it wasn't worth the trip in the first place.

Wondering how widespread 'little'* problems like that are, in Africa and elsewhere?  Do rail systems exist, and are there areas where transporting food and other freight via same would be feasible?

*well, obviously not a 'little' problem but one that would seem to have a relatively simple and known fix


#10, 35 Celsius (4.00 / 2)
35 Celsius = 95 Fahrenheit

#8, vertical farming (4.00 / 2)
Awesome implementation of the concept. That's great!

Also,

Growing Power's proposed vertical farm up for zoning review

By Karen Herzog of the Journal Sentinel
Nov. 3, 2010

The proposed 34,000-squre-foot, five-story vertical farm at Growing Power's existing site,  5500 W. Silver Spring Dr., would produce fresh vegetables and fish, have classrooms, staff offices, a demonstration kitchen, retail food outlet and food processing. Existing greenhouses and hoop houses showcasing hydroponic and aquaponic farming, seasonal hoop houses and a farmyard for cultivation and composting complete the development.



#4 Gambia, indigenous breeds (4.00 / 2)
Tim and Liz at Nature's Harmony Farm in Georgia (U.S.A.) are hardcore about this. They're improving the land as much as they can but that's about it. No medication, no medical intervention, if only half a litter survives, so be it. If a cow is down, they do as much as they can to help her, but if she dies, that's a cost they bear. They do their own breeding and the good news is, they're seeing good results already. This is their third year on the farm and I think it's the first year all their chickens have been bred and raised by them (might be the second year but I don't think so.) Mortality this year was almost nil, and animals are healthy and beautiful.

Their breeding program encompasses the animals - rabbits, sheep, cattle, pigs, perhaps the other fowl (turkeys and ducks), but I don't remember that they have applied this to fruit and vegetables (yet).

Full payoff, especially for the larger animals, will take a while I suppose, but I think that obvious benefits after only three years with chickens is awesome. I'm so glad Dani picked up on this.


You might not say that if you went through what I went through with the goats this year (4.00 / 3)
I did a lot of the same things that you say Nature's Harmony does in a disease outbreak. Until I lost 3 mature does and half of this year's kid crop. Watching an animal die of coccidia is not a pleasant thing. I went back to medicating them to combat the outbreak and was able to save the rest of the herd and kid crop.

It took one doe 3 weeks of diarhea and not being able to stand till she finally died.

I will never, never go through that again.

As it was, instead of treating with meds when the oubreak first started, I had to go to extreme doses to halt it and let the goats recover.

Even with animals with good genetics, and mine have good genetics, sometimes you really do need to medicate.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.


[ Parent ]
They've gone through it. (4.00 / 2)
As I said, they're hardcore.

[ Parent ]
I'm really curious... (4.00 / 1)
if one of them get sick, do they (or would they) refuse medicines for themselves?  Modern pharmaceuticals - rightly applied - can be really helpful. So do they accept them for themselves and not for their animals? Or do they reject medicines all the way around? In which case "hardcore" is not the adjective that I would use.

[ Parent ]
hardcore (0.00 / 0)
I understand that you're being deliberately obtuse and sarcastic, and perhaps you've had a bad day. I'll do you the honor of answering your question, even so.

Liz was in hospital for recent surgery. That by itself makes her "less hardcore" than Montana women in the late 1800s - early 1900s, when their life expectancy was 28 - 29 years. You'd need to ask her if she received medication, though.

Your ignorant question has nothing to do with developing sustainanble indigenous breeds.


[ Parent ]
I think what Dennis was getting at (4.00 / 1)
was that letting an animal lay there and suffer without treating the disease is cruel, not hardcore. People get jailed for animal cruelty for that.

When I was going through the disease oubreak here on my farm, if someone had come and seen the condition of the goats that were sick, I would have been reported for animal cruelty, even though I was treating them with meds and doing everything a veterinarian would have had me do.

I can understand wanting animals with the healthiest immune system possible in the herd. But the thing to do when there is a disease outbreak is to go ahead and treat the sick animals, cure the disease if possible, then cull the animals from the herd. Or if a person didn't want to go to the trouble of treating a sick animal, a bullet will end the suffering and cut the costs. Which is what I should have done with my own sick goats. But I kept hoping against hope that they would pull out of it. And all but one looked like they were getting better and then suddenly crashed and died. Red, who took 3 weeks to die, never lost her spunk, always tried, ate and drank well, but I was never able to get the diarhea to stop, I think the parasite load bloomed so fast that it destroyed her rumen and she slowly starved to death. I really should have killed her the day after she went down, but sometimes when they look like they're going to pull out of it, you just keep treating them and treating them because they look like they're going to be OK.

It's one of the risks we run when we don't keep animals on sub theraputic doses of meds. Most (but not all) of the meds that livestock animals are on as a regular part of the ration are to control coccidia and some worms.

Now, I appreciate what Nature's Harmony is doing with their breeding program, but just because they haven't had any mortalities this year, doesn't mean that they won't next year. It may not necessarily be the genetics, although they may well play a part.

I had my goats here for two years before I had any problems. Rotated pastures, etc. Didn't do anything different this year from what I'd done the last two, except I didn't put the kids on medicated feed at weaning this year and I had in the past.

One of the problems with a disease or parasite outbreak is that the animals that are sick can shed such a great ammount of pathogens that they can overwhelm even the healthiest animals and the most robust genetics. And often, the animals can and will start shedding before they are symptomatic, so by the time you see sypmtoms, and remove the sick animal to quarantine, your other animals are already exposed to an unusually high environmental dose of pathogen.

I'm planning on getting a microscope this winter so that I can do regular fecal floats on all the animals every few weeks. That way if I see anyone shedding an unusuall ammount of eggs or oocysts, I can go ahead and treat them before they start becoming symptomatic.

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.


[ Parent ]
you made your point yourself, (4.00 / 1)
you didn't need sideways help from DennisP. And as you know, if I don't know what you mean, I'll ask.

Believe me, they take flak.

I don't know what kind of microscope you need, but I have one I don't use, a Zeiss. It was used by a physician before he retired. It is old but in excellent condition. It is monocular, though, and it doesn't have a lamp built in. You probably would want to buy a good microscope lamp, I think. The mirror is good.

The lowest objective is 10X, and there are two higher powers including one oil immersion high power.

Free to you if it would be useful.


[ Parent ]
My savior!!!!! (4.00 / 2)
That would be perfect! Email me your contact info. I'll send you my address and pay the shipping, and will be forever in your debt! I'll send ya a big bag of bacon if it turns out good!

My email is loiosh@molalla.net

Normal people scare me.... But not as much as I scare them.


[ Parent ]
mortality (4.00 / 1)
My comment about mortality was specific to the chicken flock, not the other animals.

[ Parent ]
Too bad you don't like my attitude... (0.00 / 0)
but I don't see any justification for animals that we keep suffering needlessly. That doesn't have a damn thing to do with sustainable indigenous breeds.  

[ Parent ]
#4, farmer by farmer (4.00 / 2)
This reminds me so much of something Ann Cooper has said about fixing school food problems in the U.S. She has pointed out that we have thousands of school districts and tens of thousands of schools. Our problems can't be solved one school or one school district at a time, but we need those demonstration projects to prove what is both possible and affordable.

Just so, Nourishing the Planet is doing great work by searching out and spotlighting what works and even more, by showcasing the improvements enabled by thoughtful innovation. Industrial agriculture in the western model is not the only option and in fact probably is the wrong model, but enlightened government policies are necessary.

Excellent questions in this interview, and excellent answers.


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