The Chicken Project: Bad News

Sorry to hear about that (4.00 / 3)

but I can understand the city council's position. Can you image if any of the councilors voted to go ahead with the zone change given the cost and current economic situation in California? I don't know what city you're in, or exactly what the financial situation of that city is, but I can see the opponent's add right now.

Councilor so and so spent over $20,000 just so a handful of radical activists could keep chickens in the city.

I suppose that if you put up the $20,000 yourself they'd probably go ahead with the zone change process. Of course you wouldn't be gauranteed a win.

Of course, if you had a spare $20,000 just laying around, you could afford to put money down on a small house and stable in Norco aka 'Horse Town USA'!

My dream city to live in, if I had to live in a city, would be Norco. Not only would I bet they'd welcome chickens, but horses are given precedence over cars, bicycles, and pedestrians. Harold's son Steve has a home in Norco and does construction work in Norco. The horse is king in that town and if you part in a way that blocks the trail, you'll get a ticken or towed. Norco is even more friendly to horses than Portland is friendly to bicycles. Now that's saying a lot.

If, for any reason, I ever have to live in a city again, and I don't have family to care for, which would leave me free to move about the planet, I'm moving to Norco. I would sell everything I own, and move heaven and earth to get a job down there and then move. Hell, I'd camp out in a barn down there if I had to.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 13:19:10 PM UTC

My contrary view. (4.00 / 3)

The cost of the proposed child-friendly family-friendly amendment would be a small cost for the benefit of a large number of strapped constituents, not for one developer or special interest.

I wonder - perhaps this is a normal, natural predicament faced by people who do business with the city, and perhaps there is a normal, natural path through it. Someone from the administration or Council (your councilperson) might be able to advise.

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by: count @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 13:47:45 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

you're right about cash-strapped (4.00 / 2)

and it's sad because developers can just pay to have stuff like this done whereas us mere mortals need to go through the democratic process (as we are doing). Apparently a nearby community just changed their laws to allow chickens, and I've asked the person who told me to write our city council members and let them know that.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:57:09 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Might want to check with some (4.00 / 2)

some local churches/groups, schools, and food charities. Start building a movement . . .   :) Local CSA and farmer's market shoppers also . . . . .

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by: nycstray @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 04:25:05 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I think the idea of getting a neighboring town to help (4.00 / 1)

is a great idea. Especially one that has recently changed it's laws. It would be great if you could show, say 6 months out from the law change, the there have been no problems with the hens, etc.

developers can just pay to have stuff like this done whereas us mere mortals need to go through the democratic process

It's actually the banks that finance the developers who pay to have things changed. Also, cities are more likely to be amenable to changing zoning, etc. if it will add money to the city coffers, that is, a development is likely to generate more in taxes and fees than a vacant lot or even productive agricultural land. Gotta have plenty of taxes to pay for all those services that the constituents want, dontcha know.

Your hens won't make the city any money.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 13:17:34 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's not really out of pocket cost though. (4.00 / 1)

Those are staff costs to research the issue - staff that already draws a salary. It's an opportunity cost, meaning the staff can't do other things staff does, but it doesn't actually require an additional unplanned outlay of funds.

(Alas, $20k won't get you far for real estate in Norco!)

As it was, he did a deal with a blancmange, and the blancmange ate his wife.

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by: elfling @ Wed Dec 09, 2009 at 04:01:46 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

True (0.00 / 0)

but there are a few thousand in out of pocket costs due to the California Environmental Quality Act (or whatever CEQA stands for)

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Wed Dec 09, 2009 at 04:34:15 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Not one of... (4.00 / 3)

...the great cities of the world came about due to "zoning" laws and ordinances.  Your experience is a great example why.

No offense to the people living there, but Houston and New Jersey are the types of 'things' that come about due to "zoning" laws.

It would be illegal to build New York City or San Francisco or Portland, in the United States today.

Just a thought on a cold Sunday morning.

.......................

Oh, wait the phone's ringing.  Jill?  It's for you, somebody named "Chick N. Underground"?

:)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 13:35:29 PM UTC

"Sprawl" - (4.00 / 3)

uncontrolled development and the paving over of farmland are also prevented by zoning. At least they are in Oregon. I can't speak to what other states do as far as land use.

As always, one person's "protection" is another person's "burdensome regulation and a taking of personal and/or property rights".

Welcome to the wonderful world of property rights and zoning.....

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 14:49:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That's a different aspect, though... (4.00 / 1)

In this case I'm referring to ways in which cities are built, run and developed at the very local level; not to general statewide land-use laws.

Changing outdated single use Euclidean-style zoning codes locally in order to build better places is a much quicker way to bring about real change than to persuade all 50 states to adopt Oregon-style land use laws.  Which, of course, will never happen...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 15:25:57 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Oh, I wouldn't encourage any other state to adopt our style of land use laws (4.00 / 1)

But just because there are broad land use laws and zoning in Oregon, doesn't mean that local cities and counties can't over ride things. Or even flat out change the zoning on their own. Which thing they are free to do at their own discression.

What I was talking about was land use regs and zoning in general. And how one person's protection of an area and it's approved uses can be another person's burdensome regulations and a taking of property 'rights' or personal liberties. That can be done on the local level or the more broadly reaching state level.

The city not wanting to change their zoning, or alter it to cover smaller parcels of property with regard to chicken keeping is about as local as it gets. I doubt that the zoning regs regarding chicken keeping in the city limits have anything to do with state or even county land use policy.

I also agree with DoubleM's comment below about the city staff just trying to duck out of the city chicken issue. Looks like they just don't want to deal with it.

Perhaps also, who ever is ultimately responsible for the decission of whether or not to persue Jill's request doesn't like chickens or thinks that farm animals should stay on the farm and if she wants to keep farm animals perhaps she should move to the country?

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 17:21:26 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

heck yeah - time fer politics! (4.00 / 5)

Don't give up (not that it sounds like you're going to give up), just look at some new tactics.

First, the costs they're giving you are probably accurate; not living in your community, I can't say for sure, but those costs are a drop in the bucket in just about any local budget.  Also, your council staff is implying that they would have to somehow, somewhere find that extra money to do the review and zoning change.  That's not exactly accurate.  Most of the costs in their estimate are for staff time - i.e. money that is already in the budget by virtue of having employees on payroll.  If you look at what staff cites in their $20,000 figure, they pretty much admit it, and while those are costs, it's not new appropriations.  So, that money is already in the budget; it's not new money.

On the $16,500-plus figure for an ordinance amendment and application to Fish and Game, staff implies that to have the community foot the costs is something fairly unprecedented.  Again, I don't live in your neck of the woods, but my experience has been that this sort of thing happens fairly often.  Most communities will bend over backwards to bring in a big-box store like WalMart or Lowe's, not just footing the costs of zoning variances or environmental permitting, but waiving local property taxes or other nice deals.  

Basically, it seems to me that staff is giving you sort of a bureaucratic straw-man argument so that they don't have to get into this issue.

I think it's time to go community-organizer.  Speak the language of the politicians and hit them with petitions, constituent contact, etc.  On the local level, even a couple of dozen emails can go a long way towards swaying an opinion.  (change.org has a really solid online petition tool that would work well in this situation, I think.)  And, if you haven't met with some of the more amenable members of your council, you might.  A little one-on-one lobbying over a cup of coffee can go a long way.  

Sorry for the long comment, especially since it's my first (long-time listener, first-time caller, I guess), but this is the stuff I geek out on.

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by: doubleM @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 15:02:38 PM UTC

Great comment! (4.00 / 3)

And welcome to La Vida Locavore!

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 15:27:29 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Plus, (4.00 / 3)

we're only talking about changing an existing provision, which already allows chickens on 1/3-acre plots.

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by: count @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 15:42:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

GREAT comment (4.00 / 3)

and thanks. I'm trying to get a few folks to email the city council in advance of this week's meeting. Fingers are crossed!

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 02:58:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

analyze potential impacts (4.00 / 1)

I wonder how much opposition this proposal would receive from retailers who sell eggs.

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by: count @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 15:56:12 PM UTC

I would think not enough to matter (4.00 / 2)

The people who the retailers should be on the watch for are those of us who are keeping relatively large numbers of birds and then selling the eggs either ala carte or through regular CSA systems, etc., especially larger farms that have hundreds and even several thousand chickens who's eggs are being sold direct to the public.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 17:08:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

WTF? (4.00 / 3)

Why does it cost $20,000 to change a law?  That's hardly accessible and open government.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 17:43:08 PM UTC

I just heard from Larry Curry my State Rep (4.00 / 4)

that even if his bill  HB221 (ban on BPA in baby bottles and such in PA )made it on to the floor for consideration, that HE ( Larry) would have to pay for the expenses of any witness that came here to give testimony against the use of BPA.

another wtf...

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by: LeeN @ Sun Dec 06, 2009 at 19:17:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Can they Skype their witness in? :) (4.00 / 3)

Why on earth would they still need witnesses for a BPA ban? Can't they use it from states that have already banned? Could save a lot of time and money, not to mention people's health . . . .

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by: nycstray @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 04:28:26 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Skype (4.00 / 2)

Do you know if Skype does video? I suppose it does, but I don't know. Our son used Skype to call us when he was in Turkey a couple of months ago. He used his iPhone, but on our end we had phones without video.

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by: count @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 04:41:38 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm not a user, but they use it all the time on (4.00 / 3)

Oprah :) It's also being used more and more for interviews elsewhere. Seems to me they should be able to work something out with all this new fangled tech stuff :)

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by: nycstray @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 08:42:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

just bought myself a new lap top with built in web cam (4.00 / 1)

and yes you can use it and do video with Skype.

I'm going to call and suggest it...but bill has to come out of committee first

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by: LeeN @ Mon Dec 07, 2009 at 12:53:25 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It does (4.00 / 1)

I use it to Skype my brothers in Spain and New Orleans.  Oovoo is a pretty neat tool, too.  It's like Skype, but less people have it, and you can video chat with more than one person at once.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Tue Dec 08, 2009 at 01:50:17 AM UTC

[ Parent ]