Hello From Seattle

As much as I hate to see any system (4.00 / 5)

skewed, I think that if you can't find a source of manure from a farm or facility that doesn't continually feed their animals antibiotics or, in the case of equine facilities, dewormers, then the veganic growing systems might be the way to go.

But that's why I use the manure from my own animals. I know what they've been eating, and I know exactly what's been fed them as far as antibiotics and things like ivermectin (dewormer). I also know who raised the hay they're eating and what's gone on the hay as far as pesticides and fertilizer.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 02:43:57 AM UTC

good call (4.00 / 2)

and yeah, I agree. If I was farming, I'd have chickens and treat them well and then use their poop as fertilizer. But if you've got no good source of manure, skipping it entirely might be preferable to using leftovers from some farm that uses nasty practices.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 18:42:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Do you collect your chickens' poop? (4.00 / 1)

How do you do it?  Do you just get whatever they plop down in the coop?  Because my chickens are just freely roaming around my yard until we build a cage for them and we can't really put their poop into our compost because it's all over our backyard.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 22:13:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I collect the stuff on the floor of the coop, and (0.00 / 0)

the brooder sheds, and indoor brooders. I also pick up the manure in Gizmo's round pen/shed, and the footing/manure from the goat pen and shelter. That all goes on the compost pile and gets spread on the gardens in the spring before we till. This year I've also been collecting all the grass clippings as well as the weeds and putting them on the compost pile. Hence my sig line.

I used to be a big fan of horse manure from boarding stables, I mean, it's something that's generated by the ton, and stables really do need to get rid of the stuff otherwise it's just as much a problem as manures from a big CAFO. Then I started to think about how much dewormer is used in lots of boarding stables. Where I used to board, the owner treated her horses with Ivermectin once a month for parasites. I don't know how long it takes for the stuff to break down in the manure, so I started having second thoughts about that, and then many horse owners feed certified weed free hay, and given some of the herbicides used for that, I know that at times those chemicals can carryover and cause problems with gardens, as the chemicals wind up killing the very plants you're trying to fertilize with the manure. That doesn't happen often, but I have heard of it happening at times over the last few years both here and in Europe.

I think that, bottom line, no matter what a person decides to use to increase soil fertility, a bit of research is in order.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 23:48:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Like Joanne I collect what's in the coop (0.00 / 0)

 I use straw as bedding and when I clean it out it goes in a pile. After it sit for a while I add it to one of several composting stations I have and before the snow flies will likely add a layer to some of the beds.

 I also have portable fencing and in the fall when the crops are harvest and first thing in the spring (when the snow melts) I'll be penning them during the day right in the garden. So their poop lands where it does. I haven't done this before but know someone who has done this for years. Beyond pooping they help with fall cleanup, there scratching helps incorporate the organic matter into the top layer of soil, they eat any leftover veggie matter that may have fall on the ground, they eat bugs and whatever other critters eggs or larvae might be over wintering and eat weed seeds.  

 I practice no-till or very little till gardening so the top level aeration the chickens provide fits in quite well.  The woman I know says that she does very little prep in her garden besides raking it smooth when the chickens are done. They do a lot of the work by just being chickens.

While I understand the desire to not use manure or animal products that are contaminated in growing food, animals, especially in a smaller operation or even homesteading type scenario can provide a whole lot more then just material 'things' whether food or manure for fertilization.

Since my chickens have been roaming around the back yard I haven't had to mow a lot of the yard and the paths to and from the chicken area and in other places they roam are staying trimmed. That may not seem like a lot but from a time perspective it cuts out just one of the numerous mundane jobs that I have to do. Chickens can also help in actually getting rid of the grass itself for places to plant. If they're penned up in a smaller area for a period of time it eventually turns to dirt. On a pasture that's not what you want but if you do it's service that can really cut down on the time involved. They get to eat and be chickens and I eventually get a nice new area to plant without all of the backbreaking work tilling and digging or waiting for the months that it takes if the area is just covered by some other material.

 

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by: elizajade @ Fri Sep 04, 2009 at 12:32:50 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Have fun in Seattle (4.00 / 4)

sorry for the short response and lack of blog postings.. I've been doing healthcare blogs at progressive electorate. Also been busy in real life with a class I'm taking and work (golf) stuff.

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by: Curtis Abbey @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 02:49:25 AM UTC

green manure (4.00 / 4)

I for one am an advocate of using manure or composted manure to enrich the soil but here on the frontrange of Colorado there is one farm who uses nothing but cover crops maintain and cultivate soil health.  I was amazed at how dialed in his crops rotation was for the season.  He has divided up is land and plants these divisions in secessions.  By this I mean he tills in the winter rye, plants early season crops, harvest, tills, then plants cover crops and doesn't use that parcel until next year.  So he just moves over his fields until eventually it is all under a cover crop until next year.  Amazed I was at the fertility of his soil and the health and abundance of his crops.  His reasoning for not using manure,  he just doesn't want to pay to have it trucked in.  Great example.  

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by: donald mike @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 03:37:16 AM UTC

I guess the micros (4.00 / 3)

and earthworms don't count as animals.

I once took at call, when I was working at Earth's Best Baby
Food in VT, from a young mother who wanted to know if any animal products were used in the growing of the organic vegetables.

She was concerned about blood & bone meal and other animal products contaminating her child's food.  When I explained that all these animal inputs were digested by the soil microbes prior to the plant being able to absorb the nutrients via the nucleic acid secreted by the plant roots, she was not impressed.

If you want non animal farming then go for it.  But in nature animals have always played an important role in soil nutrition.

FYI, most composted animal manure is used by non-organic farmers.  The large corporate farmers have learned a few things, from their organic departments, about improving the soil.

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by: OrganicGeorge @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 13:36:39 PM UTC

yeah, I thought of that (4.00 / 2)

anything in the kingdom of animalia counts to vegans so far as I know. So worms are animals. Microbes aren't.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 18:43:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Aren't some microbes (4.00 / 2)

small or single-celled animals? I believe so, and wiki agrees:

Microorganisms are very diverse; they include bacteria, fungi, archaea, and protists; microscopic plants (called green algae); and animals such as plankton and the planarian.

I doubt supporters of veganics want to eliminate earthworms and microbes. For such folks the issue is usually whether or not animals are being unfairly exploited. It's hard for me to imagine anyone seriously saying that earthworms or microbes in the soil are being unfairly exploited.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 19:26:07 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

What about hydroponics? n/t (4.00 / 1)

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 22:15:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Animal-Free Gardening (4.00 / 4)

There is a book out on this topic: Growing Green: Animal-Free Organic Techniques, by Jenny Hall and Iain Tolhurst.  It's on my to-read shelf. From the blurb on the back of the book:
"...introduces the concept of stockfree (animal-free) organic and shows that when growers abandon the use of slaughterhouse by-products and manures, as well as chemicals and genetically modified seed, they can be rewarded with healthier crops and fewer weeds, pests, and diseases."

Both authors have extensive experience in organic farming. Tollhurst has 30 years experience and since 1994 his farm has been run stock-free. In 2004 Jenny Hall and her partner put 5 acres of land into stock-free organic conversion. She has been a leading figure in the Vegan Organic Network since 1998.

Both writers appear to be Britishers (not Americans).

From the Table of Contents:
Chap 1 Introduction to Stock-Free Organic Systems
Chap 2 Soil Protection
Chap 3 Soil Fertility
Chap 4 Composting Procedures
Chap 5 Propagation
Chap 6 Rotations
Chap 7 Weed Control
Chap 8 Pests and Diseases
Chap 9 Environmental Conservation
Chap 10 Environmental Accounting
Chap 11 UK Vegetable Crops
Chap 12 Season Extension and Crop Storage
Chap 13 Marketing Stock-Free Organic Produce

Published by Chelsea Green out of Vermont.

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by: DennisP @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 14:38:50 PM UTC

While I can see why a vegan or even a vegetarian (4.00 / 3)

the fact of the matter is that plants evolved in conjunction with animals, not in spite of them. It's the interaction of animals and plants that make the two kingdoms healthier, not the exclussion of one from the other. But that's just my opinion.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 15:53:55 PM UTC

I agree with you (4.00 / 2)

we all evolved together.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Sep 03, 2009 at 18:44:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]