Interesting Questions

I enjoyed the questions last night a great deal (4.00 / 3)

and was sorry they had to end.

My two cents (as a total non-expert) on issues like obesity and allergies is that they're like soil health: there isn't one thing you can point to and say, "Aha! X is causing Y."

You talked about specificially about nutritionism that reduces food to 25% of the allowance of calcium and 15% of the allowance of potassium, and about fertilizer which has reduced soil nutrient needs to 3 elements. But obviously foods and soil are more complicated than that. We don't even fully understand how nutrients, micronutrients and lots of other active/living substances in our food (or in our soil) interact to create the end results that they do, and yet we (as a society) keep trying to reduce them to components A, B and C.

I suspect we're eventually going to find out that pesticides, fertilizers, pharmaceutical residues in water, high fructose corn syrup, artificial colors and who knows what else each play some kind of role in the rise of both obesity and allergies. I know people want a simple explanation, but that's overly simplistic.

Mr. wide eyed and I were talking the rise of childhood obesity on the way home last night, and we were discussing the minimal amount of exercise many kids get these days. Mr. wide eyed brought up video games as a factor in that they keep kids entranced, nearly motionless and indoors for hours on end.

But honestly I don't think you can talk about video games without also talking about how much more protective parents have gotten. I'm 10 years older than Jill, and when I was a kid (let's say between the ages of 5 and 12) me and my siblings were literally never indoors during daylight hours in even halfway decent weather. We would come inside for a drink and a snack now and again and be immediately shooed back outside. My parents didn't really pay a lot of attention to who we hung out with and what exactly we got up to. We climbed trees, rode bikes, picked berries, ran races, made mud patties, explored the woods, etc., etc.

I think it's easy to blame video games, but it's just as likely that the rise of protectionism in parents (which has sadly become somewhat necessary in our increasingly dangerous world) has meant that kids spend a lot more time bored and indoors and that the increasingly popularity of video games is because they relieve boredom. I mean, we had an Atari with something like 50 games when I was young, and while we did play it, we never played it for hours on end. I don't remember my parents ever putting any restrictions on it; it just didn't have much appeal to us when the outdoors beckoned.

Whew! I had no idea how long this was going to be when I started it. :)

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 13:57:49 PM UTC

I think that (4.00 / 4)

like Wide Eyed Lib pointed out, the problems with obesity are systemic in our culture. It's not one or even a few things that are causing these lifestyle based diseases and syndromes. Likewise I think problems with all the food allergies that are around now are systemic.

In the diary on that peanut paste that's being distributed to kids in 3rd world countries to combat malnutrition there was some very interesting info on allergies. When asked about problems with peanut allergies and the children, the worker in the interview said that peanut allergies were almost unheard of in those countries. I don't know if that's because kids who have it and come in contact with the nuts die, therefore not passing on genetics that make them prone to those types of allergies, or if it's environmental factors that cause people in the USA to be more prone to nut allergies and those in 3rd world countries to lack the allergies. I have an idea, given the rapid rise of the allergies here, that it's an environmental issue. Similar to the rise in the number of people suffering autoimune diseases. You look at the environments that people live in in the 3rd world countries and that that we live in, they're completely different. I would hazard a guess, that the immune systems of people in those countries, if you took the malnutrition factor out of the equation, are much more robust and health than those of most of us here.

If it actually is a systemic problem we have over here, then just fixing a few parts of our living system here won't work, or at least it won't work very well to remidy the health issues we have in this country.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 14:26:41 PM UTC

I agree completely, (4.00 / 2)

and systemic is a great word to describe the problem.

I know it sometimes sounds like new-agey mumbo jumbo, but I've read a bit about the Gaia hypothesis, which suggests that the best way to think about the earth is as a single, living organism. (Some argue that the earth is actually a single, living organism, but the hypothesis can be a useful analytical tool even if you don't want to take it that far.)

When viewed that way, things like the fact that amphibians all over the world are dying, seals are coming down with a weird, neurological illness, and cases of severe food allergies among children are on the rise (there are lots of other possible examples, including the rise in obesity) could all be interpreted as symptoms of a larger disease.

The web of interaction is so huge and far reaching that we may never entirely understand it, but I think we can make educated guesses about at least some of the causes.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 15:27:28 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I hold to looking at the world as an organic whole (4.00 / 3)

as opposed to seeing it as components in a mechanical system. I suppose that in a way you can see the world as a living organism, if you want to look globally. All parts of the system impinge on the overall performance of the whole, especially when small parts of the system aggregate into a macro component - such as what we call pests, diseases, etc.

These organisms aren't bad intrinsically, they just result in less than optimal outcomes - in our opinion - in certain situations, such as when we alter the organism's environment in such a way that we optimize the environment for that organism's survival. Monocropping is one excellent example of environmental optimisation for certain diseases, insects, etc.. And then people are surprised when the unwanted organisms increase in density and prevailance.

The door can swing just as easily the other way, when, for instance, we assume that all a plant needs is NPK+water. That's not seeing the whole, just the parts.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 23:01:49 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

it might be that the water... (4.00 / 2)

in the third world, and life in general is less hyper-hygienic than in the West.  I think we saw a segment on the new science news show "Brink", but it was easy to find corroborating info on-line:

The "hygiene hypothesis" holds that our immune systems evolved to compensate for continual infections with parasitic gut worms, which secrete chemicals that reduce our immune responses. People who are now worm-free have overreactive immune systems, which can lead to asthma and autoimmune disorders.

http://www.newscientist.com/ar...

Also see the wiki article on "hygiene hypothesis" here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H...

It's a VERY interesting article, including new findings that lice are also immune-suppressors!

And it certainly jibes with the idea that there are fewer food allergies in the not-yet-developed world.

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by: chimene @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 21:06:14 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's not just the water... (4.00 / 1)

it's everything. Conventional crops are grown on sterile ground, and people use disinfecting, antibacterial sprays to wash their counters and hands every 5 minutes while simultaneously taking antibiotics for colds. We in the U.S. in particular live in a bizarrely, unnaturally "clean" world. I know people who literally never even open their windows. Lots of people are living in sterile bubbles, convinced that it's healthy to do so.

Did you read in the wiki article that people with autoimmune diseases are sometimes "treated" with parasitic worms?

I don't suppose anyone will actually do the smart thing and encourage people to stop living such sterile lives.  

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 21:52:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I was recently diagnosed as having pre-diabetes. (4.00 / 3)

So my wife and I have been devouring books on the subject: what causes diabetes (invariably linked to the standard American diet (SAD, isn't it?), obesity, and a sedentary lifestyle, though also one's genes) and what YOU can do to protect yourself and prevent developing a full-blown case of diabetes with all its complications.

But one thing the books (that we've read so far) never point out is that all these things are linked to our culture: the broken, dysfunctional food and political systems.  Well, dysfunctional for human beings, but very functional for profit-seeking corporations. Like the authors are not aware of this cultural background or are afraid of offending corporate America.  

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by: DennisP @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 14:41:08 PM UTC

You know, (4.00 / 2)

you talk about diabetes in humans, but diabetes is on the rise in horses also. They call it insulin resistance, but it's diabetes. I have a friend who's mare died of hyperglycemia after coming back from a trail ride on Mt. Hood. The vet said she had probably always been hyperglycemic, but the stress from the ride did her in. Brenda said she always thought it odd that the mare's urine smelled sweet, horse uring usually smells like pee.

I think I've heard of insulin problems in dogs too over the past 10-15 years?

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 22:50:52 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

cats as well (4.00 / 2)

One of my cats is diabetic, and it's become the number 1 endocrine disorder in cats in the past 10 years.

I hadn't really made the connection between human insulin resistance and animal insulin resistance before, but there may very well be a connection. Yikes.

We're really playing Russian roulette with all the stuff we're pumping into the air, water, ground and our food. Sometimes thinking about these things makes me want to crawl under the covers and not come out.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 23:24:00 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yup, one of the reasons I raw/home feed (4.00 / 3)

my animals. Aside from added toxins and manufacturer screw ups, a lot of commercial pet food is just a dumping ground for industrial ag and big food.

Do you know if there is more than one type of diabetes for cats?  

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by: nycstray @ Tue Aug 11, 2009 at 23:46:35 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Too true (4.00 / 2)

too true.

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

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by: Joanne Rigutto @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 02:19:14 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Cats and dogs get both type I and type II (4.00 / 1)

diabetes. Type II is more common in cats, and type I is more common in dogs.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 22:02:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

That surprises me! (4.00 / 1)

I had never thought about pets getting diabetes (or insulin resistance). But it makes sense. A broken, dysfunctional food system that is focussed on feeding everyone HFCS would do the same thing to animals. I guess you have to be really careful where you get your animal feed nowadays, just as more of us are trying to be careful where we get our food.

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by: DennisP @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 16:49:32 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

my condolences (4.00 / 1)

not a fun disease to have. Best way to deal w/ it is by not getting it in the first place. Hope you're able to prevent it.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Aug 13, 2009 at 05:35:43 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Good politicians (0.00 / 0)

Jim McGovern (D-Ma) and Jo Ann Emerson (R-Mo) are consistently two of the best Congress members on anti-hunger issues. They have sponsored & supported numerous bills.  

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by: jcdwyer @ Wed Aug 12, 2009 at 16:23:05 PM UTC

Jo Ann Emerson (0.00 / 0)

is a total asshole. Seriously.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Aug 13, 2009 at 05:36:11 AM UTC

[ Parent ]