Vegan Challenge: I'm Stayin' Vegan

good luck with your new direction (4.00 / 2)

but please tell a long time beekeeper why honey is NOT vegan

if you refer us to this site

http://www.vegetus.org/honey/h...

i could write a multi page dissertation on what a badly documented argument they put forth. much of the references are taken out of context or simply not understood by an obviously non bee charmer.

honey leaves the least carbon footprint in its production then any other sweetner per pound and of course the bees play an important part in plant sex that ensures a diverse environment and pollinated crops.

possibly the least understood fact about honeybees is they are NOT native to North and South America. human managed hives function way different then wild hives found in trees and buildings. in general honeybees live longer when managed by humans as the beekeeper intervenes to stop disease and also ensure good food sources.

i am interested to hear other takes on veganism and honey

---

by: bud dingler @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 20:53:22 PM UTC

My take on veganism and honey (4.00 / 5)

It's true that industrial ag stresses the bees, but it's also true that something like 1/3 of plants require pollinators to reproduce. So if you're eating plants that require pollination by bees but avoiding honey, I don't see the point. I'd much rather just eat local honey.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

---

by: Jill Richardson @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:39:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I buy local (4.00 / 4)

honey from Aliso Viejo (and beekeeping is on my list of things to learn about) and got a lecture in a diary at Daily Kos about honey being just as bad as corn syrup.  Flabbergasted and not quite sure how to respond.

As for the veganism, good for you!  I've been cutting out meat and eating a lot less, becoming vegan would be a huge stretch with my husband and daughter.  Baby steps.

I have so much I want to write about since I started reading about peak oil and getting interested in the food issue.  My head is spinning just thinking about it all.  I hope to come back and write something soon though.

---

by: Ellinorianne @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 23:44:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I like your point (4.00 / 4)

that some fruit and veggies would not bee there without some pollination help so hard to deny pollinators from the vegan table.

as far as ag stressing bees...
.
like with any food these days one wants to know how and by whom it was produced. why would we think that honey is any different then other foods that are grown in industrial ways?  instead of condemning a specific food I suggest its all about supporting ethical and sustainable growers or in this case beekeepers.

there is an industrial version of beekeeping called feedlot beekeeping that mirrors the same issues with CAFO. what drives it is two fold: imported honey from OUS that drives down the commodity price and makes honey not a profitable crop.  secondly, almonds are the largest cash crop in the USA and their production is increased like 70% with honeybees.  the massive plantings from chico south of the bay in CA require about a million colonies out of an estimated 1.5 million in the USA.  these bees are trucked in breathing diesel fumes across the country to complete the pollination cycle of one of the worlds largest monocrop plantings which is far from how nature intended pollination and nutrtional needs of honey bees to work together .

so get this almonds are originally from asia that  we're trying to pollinate in Feb in North America. my bees here are at rest like they would be in the wild. the feedlot bees are being fed HFCS and soy flour to trick them into thinking its spring and pollen and nectar are coming in so they raise more brood. they need the increased population to get the attractive fee of $150 per hive renta and usually  in winter the bee population is at its lowest to conserve stored food. anyhow as in CAFO tens of thousands of hives are parked in CA from Nov-Feb amping up on HFCS/soy. in the wild hives are naturally spaced 1/2 mile apart.  one hive gets sick and a wave of death occurs in the holding yards and this is a bee calamity? its called greed in my book.

they way I see it there is no bee problem anymore then there is a pork or dairy problem if you hear what I'm saying.....

bottom line...support local NON-MIGRATORY beekeepers who operate in a sustainable manner with the bees best interest in mind  

---

by: bud dingler @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 01:26:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Almonds our largest cash crop? (4.00 / 2)

I didn't know that, nor would I ever have suspected it.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:19:51 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Actually, it's not (4.00 / 2)

I'm still looking for the USDA link to verify it, but a page I found on a marijuana legalization site lists these as the top cash crops in America for 2006-2008 (dollar figures are yearly average in thousands):

1. Marijuana ----- $35,803,591
2. Corn ----- $23,299,601
3. Soybeans ----- $17,312,200
4. Hay ----- $12,236,638
5. Vegetables ----- $11,080,733
6. Wheat ----- $7,450,907
7. Cotton ----- $5,314,870
8. Grapes ----- $2,876,547
9. Apples ----- $1,787,532
10. Rice ----- $1,706,665
11. Oranges ----- $1,583,009
12. Tobacco ----- $1,466,633
13. Sugarbeets ----- $1,158,078
14. Sugarcane ----- $942,176
15. Sorghum ----- $840,923
16. Cottonseed ----- $821,655
17. Peanuts ----- $819,617
18. Barley ----- $653,095
19. Peaches ----- $474,745
20. Beans ----- $467,236

Sorry about the rough-looking table, I didn't want to make a career out of prettifying the output.

The New York Times, also quoting the USDA, reports 2006 US almond production at approximately $2.2 billion, which owuld put it between grapes and apples on the chart above. Which makes me wonder why it's not already there.

Still, even if we only count legal cash crops, almonds come in at 8th, not first. Where almonds come in first is in percentage of the almond crop that's pollenated by honeybees. According to the same NY Times article 100% of the US almond crop (almost all of which is in California, I believe) is pollenated by bees.

I have succumbed to the Twitter craze. @Omir55

---

by: Omir the Storyteller @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:08:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Largest cash crop pollinated by bees... (4.00 / 1)

OK, that makes sense.

Great detective work, Omir. Thanks for going the extra miles.

---

by: count @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 18:25:44 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I know I mangled your statement. (4.00 / 1)

I'll think about it some more.

---

by: count @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 18:33:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

ok (0.00 / 0)

think it was largest single cash crop in CA then - check that out for accuracy. its a statistic that beekeepers like to toss out is where I got it from

---

by: bud dingler @ Tue Jul 14, 2009 at 21:40:38 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I can tell you right now without even looking (0.00 / 0)

that marijuana beats it out. :)

As for legal crops, I'll have to take a look. You might be right, since other crops like grapes are split among several states and AFAIK California has almonds all to itself (or has such a high percentage that it might just as well). The statistics are kind of elusive, but it seems like somewhere, somehow, the CA Dept. of Agriculture should have a list of cash crops grown in the state ranked by income.

Unless they've just cut to the chase and shut the state down and none of that data is accessible. ("We're sorry, you have reached a state that has been disconnected or is no longer in service . . . ")

I have succumbed to the Twitter craze. @Omir55

---

by: Omir the Storyteller @ Tue Jul 14, 2009 at 23:13:31 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Rec'd for this (4.00 / 1)

bottom line...support local NON-MIGRATORY beekeepers who operate in a sustainable manner with the bees best interest in mind  

I have succumbed to the Twitter craze. @Omir55

---

by: Omir the Storyteller @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 17:09:30 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sounds like a good plan... (4.00 / 5)

...and congratulations!

:)

Glad you're feeling better.  I seem to have a bit more energy when I wake up these days, but I'm not quite sure yet if I can attribute that to this?  However, it is the only real change I've made since last month.  I ate them a lot to begin with, but I'm eating significantly more whole grains and beans and nuts and berries (if I even still do struggle with eating enough fruit, but blackberries are here, and canteloupes are coming soon!  my favorites!) the past few weeks now, too - and I'm realizing that, thinking back to years ago when I finally dropped all the crap food and soda (almost ten years!  give or take a few, heh...), I pretty much subsisted on oatmeal and rice & beans with a bit of meat (still ate meat until about 2 yrs ago) and random veggies thrown in for like the first year.  Never felt that good before, or since.  Once I felt I 'cleansed out' my system (rice & beans 'detox' lol), then I went back to eating a more varied diet and cheesy pasta dishes again, etc...

Feeling so good that first time was obviously attributable as much to my massive intake of whole grains back then, at least as much, if not more, than cutting out the crap 'foods'.

I'm not at all saying oatmeal and rice & beans & greens is a perfect way to live day in and day out, but it ain't bad as a base plan with berries thrown into the oatmeal and random veggies thrown into the rice, with the occasional splurge like homemade mac & cheese or ravioli or pierogi or pizza...

This was a good way to make me realize that again, so it helped me too.  Of course, not over yet!  4 more weeks to go, and I may decide to stay vegan yet!  Honestly doubt it in my case, but this did help me realize where I went "wrong" in my eating over the past couple years.  I was basically doing it backwards from what I used to do.  Of course I was using the best local and artisanal ingredients around, and not eating "bad" by anybody's definition I'd say, but still - way too many omelets and cheesy pasta dinners and fried egg sandwiches.

So I learned something (that I already knew - 're'learned), too.  And in just 3 weeks! :)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

---

by: JayinPortland @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 21:23:54 PM UTC

always allow a cheat ;) (4.00 / 4)

seriously, a latte here and there (especially if it helps your head) is not going to stop the earth. My cheat is hot dogs at baseball games (must be at stadium or I would never cheat with one). Your "cheat" may have just been a bit too heavy for your adjusted system, I tend to contemplate my cheats before I do them. After almost a year of no processed, hot dogs, cracker jacks and whatever else I ate at a game wasn't a smart move, lol!~ I'm pretty content now with just the hot dog/beer routine and perhaps a sneak of my buddy's cracker jacks :)

I also consider eating out opportunities. I did go to a dinner at a restaurant I wouldn't normally eat at now, but it was about the people there, so I just ordered very carefully and watched what/how much I ate. My friend checked on me the next day to make sure my body was ok and not revolting to impurities, lol!~ I made a list of restaurants and bookmarked them so that I have suggestions when plans are being made. I can count on my friends generally supporting me in that respect ;)

I could check with the guy that taught our artisan ice cream class (and also a couple members of our CSA core group). They have ways for changing reg ice cream recipes into vegan/dairy free, if you're interested :)

---

by: nycstray @ Sat Jul 04, 2009 at 22:40:28 PM UTC

I want recipes! (4.00 / 5)

LOL. Since I started farming commercially, I have even more vetegitables than normal, and I eat a lot of vegies anyway. I love raw vegies, but cooking gives me a lot more ways to prepare them.

Right now I'm awash in red romain that needs to be harvested this week, and I've got Walla Walla Sweet onions coming on like gangbusters, all 420 of them. They'll last a while, but I'm going to be planting leeks this week, among other things. I also have 6 lbs of snow and sugar snap peas that my customers didn't order. I'd take them down to the produce stand, but I figure I might as well eat or freeze them for myself for winter.

I'm using meat as a supplement to the vegies. I eat meat maybe 2-3 times/week. I'm looking at my bean bin, it's almost empty, need to stock it back up till our own soup beans are ready for harvest in 4-5 months. Actually, thinking about it, I really use meat as a seasoning for the vegies. That's different.

But they'll have to pry the deviled eggs and pasta made with eggs from my cold, dead, hands.....

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

---

by: Joanne Rigutto @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 00:40:31 AM UTC

Is your farming done just within your family, (4.00 / 1)

or do you hire outside help? Just a minor curiosity.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:18:06 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Joanne, did you see this? (4.00 / 4)

Since you have extra peas and lettuce, it might be the perfect recipe for you. I also found out yesterday that it's good cold, too. :)

FRIED RICE WITH LETTUCE AND PEAS
3 Tbsp olive oil
6 shallots or 1 medium onion
2 cups leftover brown rice (1 pint from Chinese rest.)
1 Tbsp soy sauce
1 cup frozen peas (or fresh peas parboiled till almost done)
1 whole head lettuce
1 cup other greens (kale, chard, spinach, etc.)

Heat oil in wok or big dutch oven. Add shallots/onions and sautee until translucent. Add rice, stirring constantly. If it seems like the rice is sticking, add more oil. Add soysauce.

Meanwhile, remove the core from the lettuce and discard. Chop lettuce and greens, separating large stems from greens (discard spinach stems, though) and chopping separately. When rice is nice and hot, add peas and chopped stems to pan. Taste and add a little more soy sauce, if needed. Cook 5 minutes, then stir in greens. (You may have to do that in batches, but that's okay.) Cook 2-3 minutes more, until greens are just wilted. Enjoy.

Serves 3-4.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

---

by: wide eyed lib @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 05:22:58 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Chilled Summer Soups (4.00 / 2)

Summertime is not normally thought of as soup season. But perhaps with the exception of cold cucumber soup and gazpacho, you hardly see other summer soups.

These are really to fix since they don't have to cook for hours. Substitute almost any green and/or leafy vegetable.

CHILLED LETTUCE SOUP

Chop lettuce and puree in a food processor. Set aside.

Mince a small onion and one clove of garlic.  Saute in a tablespoon of oil until golden.

Add in a couple of tablespoons of flour. Stir until flour bubbles. (Make a roue.) (Cheaters skip this whole bit and start with a can of Campbell's Celery soup.) ;-(

Stir in a couple of cups of milk. (Or milk substitute.) Cook until thickened. (No more than a couple of minutes.)

Take off stove. Allow to cool. Stir in lettuce. Chill in refrigerator for several hours.

Top with chopped chives and serve with toasted crustini.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

---

by: Anonymous Bosch @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 13:43:36 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I made a pea soup last week (4.00 / 2)

I called "what's in the [CSA] box"

I just used brighter flavorings (Cilantro, lime etc) vs the smokier fall/winter ones. Used some Japanese turnips, summer squash, baby carrots, spring garlic and scapes, broth I made from my CSA poultry bones . . .  YUM!

---

by: nycstray @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 18:27:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Sounds delicious. (4.00 / 1)

I could never get away with that unless I tossed a few pounds on cubed chuck into it. Then I could call it Beef Vegetable Soup.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

---

by: Anonymous Bosch @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 19:06:42 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

You could :) (4.00 / 2)

or smoked ham, chicken, turkey. I was lazy and didn't even cook up any bacon for the top :)

I alter how I start pea and other soups. Sometimes I use bacon while sauteing the onions and/or port mushrooms. Other times, different sausages. Sometimes I add chunks of meats or make little flavored meatballs, that I brown first and use that for flavor . . .

The meatless ones are what I consider a vegetarian meal 'round my table {grin}. So what if I used a chicken broth or a little bacon for flavor!  

---

by: nycstray @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 16:29:40 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I could do that... (4.00 / 1)

I'm the Soup King around here. :-)

The trouble is, I have a 20 quart soup pot Mrs.B got me for Christmas one year. Since then it's virtually impossible to make a "little" soup. She watches me like a hawk to make sure I don't keep stuffing things into them, though I do maintain a theme. Beef/Vegetable, Split Pea w/ ham hocks, (Beefless) French Onion.

The Onion Soup is vegan right up to the very end, lol.

3 Lb. Yellow onions
2 gloves on garlic, minced or crushed
6 Tablespoons of Olive oil (more if needed)
1 Teaspoon Salt
1 Black Pepper
10 Cups of water
1 book

Chop onions coarsely.
Crush garlic.
Heat oil and drop in all onion and garlic.
Cook over medium heat for 2&1/2 hours.
STIR CONSTANTLY!
Read book with non-stirring hand.
STIR CONSTANTLY!

As the onions cook down, a dark brown residue will collect of the bottom and sides of the pot - "caramelizing". This is the flavor. Scrape this into the cooking onions. When the onions stop sticking to the bottom of the pot, there's no more sugar in the onions to cook. (Maybe after 2 hours.)

Add water slowly. Stir and break up the dark brown clots. (Like dissolving bouillon cubes.) Once the clots are homogenized into the soup, add the rest of the water. Reduce heat to Low.

Take out over-proof bowls. Slice thick pieces of bread and place in bowls. Pour soup over bread. Ready for the broiler.

VEGANS! STOP READING HERE!

Grate cheddar cheese. Cover soupy bread as liberally as your arteries allow. Place under broiler flame until cheese is bubbly.

Bon Appetit!

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

---

by: Anonymous Bosch @ Mon Jul 06, 2009 at 17:08:53 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

sounds like a good plan (4.00 / 6)

I'm glad you're feeling healthier! Although I'm not vegan or even vegetarian, I end up cooking a lot of vegan meals because I love stir-fries and Indian food. It's more work than grabbing take-out, but you can eat very well.

Tip for vegans: I highly recommend getting a cookbook that specializes in South Indian cuisine. That's much less likely to contain yogurt, cream or other ingredients you'd have to substitute. The one I have is Art of South Indian Cooking by Alamelo Vairavan and Patricia Marquardt. I have no idea if it's still in print, but it's fantastic, and it has around 100 recipes suitable for vegans.

Here's my question about the raw food diet (which I know isn't what you are doing, but maybe someone else here is and can answer). Everyone I know who's gone raw raves about how much weight they've lost. So it sounds like it's a good way to lose weight. But can a raw foods diet sustain someone once they've reached their healthy weight and don't want to lose more?  

---

by: desmoinesdem @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 01:58:39 AM UTC

Art of South Indian Cooking (4.00 / 4)

Not clear whether this 1997 book is still in print. Amazon offers it through other vendors, Powell's has a used copy.

Powell's has other books by Vairavan.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:42:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

my daughter is in India this summer.. (4.00 / 3)

and learning how to cook from her host family. She's writing down recipes and I will post if she sends them to me

---

by: LeeN @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 03:23:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Please find out from your daughter (4.00 / 2)

her favorite chai recipe. Perhap this is a request to be made after she's been there a while longer. Also, I am curious to know how widely pepper is used in chai where she is, or what her host family says about this.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 03:59:48 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Lattes and honey (4.00 / 4)

Being reasonable is the key to success for any long term eating strategy. Example: I don't cook mashed potatoes and I wouldn't order the dish in a restaurant. My mother is known to make the best mashed potatoes in the neighborhood. She always serves them at Sunday dinner, and I love them. I go to my mother's for Sunday dinner. I eat mashed potatoes. But, I don't take home the leftovers.

It isn't cheating, it's called being reasonable.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 02:59:26 AM UTC

well did u see what I wrote about my reflux? (4.00 / 4)

and I am eating veganish...ie vegan during day and sometimes vegan at night if not sensible healthy food..and organic I have had NO reflux for 3 weeks .Anyway my DFA meeting was here and as usual people brought crap. I cheated and ate 2 shitty cookies..The burning was instant..and so bad I had to lay down..I'm staying this way too..And I have way more energy..

Was Howie Klein the raw vegan??

---

by: LeeN @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 03:17:49 AM UTC

Howie Klein? No (4.00 / 3)

It was a non-blogger who lives in San Diego.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

---

by: Jill Richardson @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 05:59:07 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Home cooking (4.00 / 4)

You've been saying something for a long time, Jill, and your discovery about needing to cook at home is merely further validation: the world outside our front doors is not arranged for healthful eating. It isn't about veganism, either. I made the same discovery in 1998, when I decided to try to follow the advice of Dr. Barry Sears. Dr. as in Ph.D. biochemist, not M.D. I gave myself a couple of months to find out if it was practical, and one of the first things I found was that I needed to prepare my own food.

A good thing was, I was cooking only for myself, I wasn't troubled by needing to bring spouse or children into the project. A bad thing was, I needed to learn to cook. It worked out, though. I like that people like you and Jay are finding this out much earlier in life than I did. This is closely related to your subsequent post about food independence, I think. Changing our paradigm begins with more people doing more cooking at home. Right?

Early on, I eliminated or greatly reduced the five white starches - rice, pasta, white breads, white-meat potatoes, and bananas. After all these years, I still am chagrined that I used to rely on those foods. All five of them are popular because they are the cheapest things in the store. Despite their cheapness, dollar for dollar they are the least nutritious staples in the store.

Another reason for the popularity of Pasta, white rice, and white flour is, they have very long shelf lives, which should perhaps be a warning index about the food we eat.

I have no aversion to eating leftovers, and I am not against eating the same thing three or four days running. One of the things that helped me minimize cooking was to make big pots of stuff, which I would then eat until it was gone. This approach isn't for everybody, I suppose. (People more organized than me might freeze the extra, to be eaten later.)

I began eating more fruit, partly because it needn't be cooked. This was consistent with a major reason I decided not to go Atkins. Long term, I could not see myself avoiding navel oranges, ripe melons, cherries, berries, etc. Giving up bananas wasn't a problem.

Coincidentally, completely accidentally, I began cooking Indian foods. As long as I was going to learn to cook, why not learn to cook Indian? As you know, this was great from the perspective of eating more whole foods.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 03:54:56 AM UTC

Congratulations and good luck (4.00 / 5)

I've been a vegetarian for my entire life. Not sure I could go vegan. Milk and it's many forms would be hard for me to go without as would dairy in general.

I try to keep those things to a minimum and buy diary from my co-op which gets it's stuff from sustainable, small farms. Making the jump just seems like too much to me.

But kudos to you for doing that, and good luck!  

---

by: Populista @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 05:19:53 AM UTC

Hee hee... (4.00 / 4)

it probably was the bagel, not the cream cheese or latte.

---

by: count @ Sun Jul 05, 2009 at 05:55:03 AM UTC

[ Parent ]