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Why nutrition research is hard

by: plf515

Fri Jun 26, 2009 at 10:23:15 AM PDT


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In my diary earlier this week, I said I'd write about this, so here it is.

One doesn't need to read much on nutrition before realizing that there is a lot of contradiction and confusion.  Even ignoring the crazy stuff (this pill made me lose 100 pounds in 2 weeks without being hungry!) things are weird.

I'm a statistician, and I can think of six reasons why nutrition research is hard or confusing:

1) People vary
2) Experiments are impossible
3) Effect sizes are small
4) Interactions abound
5) People lie or forget
6) The cult of signficance

More on each, below the fold

plf515 :: Why nutrition research is hard
People vary  The most extreme variations are allergies.  If I eat nuts, I enjoy them.  If my brother eats nuts, he could go to the hospital.  Then there are things like lactose intolerance.  And there are more subtle differences.  In one study, researchers fed Thai people and Norwegian people (IIRC) Thai food. then they measured the uptake of certain minerals, and found Thai people got more of them.  Then they fed both groups hamburger, and found that the Norwegians got more nutrients.

People metabolize food differently.

Very few studies account for this, and when you simply take the average, you lose the variation. For example, perhaps the average 150 pound woman who is mostly sedentary needs 2000 calories a day (I dunno exactly, but it's about that).  But some will need more and some less.  

I think it likely that some people can metabolize saturated fat (or any other substance) better than others.  

Experiments are impossible  In statistics, we distinguish between experiments and observational studies.  In an experiment, the researcher can randomly assign people to different treatments.  In an observational study, such randomization is impossible (that's a simplification, but this is going to be a long diary anyway).  The problem with observational studies is that there can be confounding factors.  People who, e.g., give up red meat may make other changes as well - in fact, they probably do.  This makes it very hard to disentangle what is going on.  Did you lose weight because you gave up heavy cream, or because you started walking to work? Maybe both?

Nearly all nutritional research on humans is observational. To do a true experiment, you'd have to control everything that people ate; that would probably require them living in a lab, for a prolonged period.  That's expensive and the people who volunteer to do it may be atypical.  

Effect sizes are small  Suppose we find that some food is linked to some rare illness.  Let's say, just to keep it simple, that the illness affects 1 in 1000 people, but that people who eat thingies have double the risk. To get a good estimate of such a change would require a huge sample.  If you sampled 10,000 people, that wouldn't be enough; the 95% confidence interval for the difference would be

-0.27% to  0.07%

(this gets into the whole area of research design - the above is for a prospective design).

Interactions abound In statistics, an interaction means that the effect of one variable is different at different levels of the other variable.  For instance, certain minerals and vitamins have to be ingested together for full effect - that is, the effect of vitamin 1 is higher if you also take vitamin 2.  Other times, you should NOT take one with another.  This makes research hard.  

People lie or forget  Given that it is very hard to control what people eat, we often rely on retrospective reports.  These are going to have inaccuracies in them.

The cult of significance  When you see a statement like "Taking Glorp reduces cholesterol" it almost always means that someone did a study and found a statistically significant difference in cholesterol for people who ate glorp vs. those who did not.  Then someone else does a similar study, and finds no difference.  But statistical significance, although it is by far the most common criterion, is not the best.  We usually ought to prefer measures of effect size: How much lower was cholesterol in the glorp eaters?

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I crammed a lot of information in there (4.00 / 7)
I'll be happy to try to answer questions.

I know my statistics - but you people know a lot more about nutrition than I do.


I can really relate to 'people vary' being an issue. (4.00 / 6)

I'm trying to sort out my own variabilness right now as well as slogging through reams of nutritional info.  I just discovered yesterday at a physical that I'm severely B12 deficient. Thing is I do eat meat and I do take a B 12 supplements and overall my diet is pretty decent in terms of lots of variety of whole foods.

Years ago I was having some health issue and they found then that my B12 was low. At the time I was a vegetarian and pretty much took that as being an explanation of where the problem likely came from.  I changed my diet then and took some supplements and since the health issue that sent me to the doctor in the first place cleared up I didn't bother to get it recheck until now.

I came home and started surfing to try to find out what might be up. Boy there is a lot out there on possible reasons why. Seems like though statistically I'm falling into a bit of an anomolous category in terms of possible reasons why. I'm still young, my diet is decent, I don't have any other significant health problems and no symptoms of possible health issues that may be causing this problem.  The main symptom I do have is feeling more tired then I should which is a symptom of low B12 itself.  I have many possible leads nutrition wise of what it might be or what combo of things that might be missing or have too much (speaks to Interactions Abound) but it's going to take some time to try to figure out because there are so many nutritional possibilities and theories about it that I've found on the net so far.

In the end it could be that biologically I'm just a person who just isn't good at absorbing it through food because of something genetic which does apparently happen with some people.

In the meantime I will be getting B12 shots and hope that brings it up and am looking forward with interest on if it changes how I feel overall in terms of general health.  


Numbers (4.00 / 4)
RE: nutrition panels for food sold in the U.S.

2000 calories per day supposedly is for a mythical woman of average size, average activity. 2500 calories per day supposedly is for a mythical man of average size, average activity. Both of these numbers are bullshit. Once upon a time I knew what "average" was, but I don't now. The numbers are in the literature somewhere.

I am 6'3", taller than average for a man. I walk and hike a lot. I changed the way I ate in 1998, and decreased intake to 1700-1800 calories per day. I don't know what I was eating before that. I went from 240 pounds to 185 pounds, which I sustained for several years. I kept track of my walking during that time, and completed one 365-day period averaging 3.7 miles per day. That didn't include trips from desk to coffee pot, nor from sofa to refrigerator. That was away-from-home urban hiking. Is that sedentary or moderate? I don't know.

I have been eating around 2000 calories for the last couple of years and am at 200 lbs now. Remember, this is a taller-than average man. The additional weight is all fat.

I would look much better and probably would live longer if I carried 175 pounds. That would imply about 1600 calories per day, I think. And I think a 130-pound sedentary woman would do very nicely on about 1200 calories per day. She might lose some weight, depending on how tall she is.

I don't think my experience is an atpicality that is erased in averages. I think the government numbers are simply wrong.


I wonder what nutrition panels in other countries say. (4.00 / 3)
Anybody know? Do other countries have nutrition panels?

[ Parent ]
I'd check the EU... (4.00 / 4)
Interesting question, I wonder what they have to say about a lot of things?  Do they have a "food pyramid" type thing, and does it look different?

Gack!  Need to shower and run out the door in like 45 minutes, don't have time to look it up.  And now I'm gonna spend all day thinking about it.  Heh...

I'll probably look it up when I get back in tonight...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
I appreciate the thought... (4.00 / 4)
(why didn't I think of that?)

Canadian Nutrition Facts Table (interactive.) The Canadian label doesn't specify the base against which % Daily Values are calculated, which is what prompted my question.

Canada's Food Guide, in version html and pdf version.

EU nutrition labeling

No tidy EU version of Canada's NFT or the U.S. Food Pyramid, but I did find a vegan food pyramid.


[ Parent ]
150 pounds (4.00 / 4)
plf515's example actually is a 150-lb woman. Depending on how tall she is, she might best use more than 1200 calories. If she's overweight at 150, 1200 calories could be a good intake.

[ Parent ]
You may have a slower than average (4.00 / 2)
metabolism.

[ Parent ]
Apparently not. (4.00 / 1)
People with whom I sleep remark about how much body heat I throw off.

[ Parent ]
Eating glorp (4.00 / 5)
I challenge anyone to get a Quaker poobah to show you research proving that "OATMEAL HELPS REDUCE CHOLESTEROL." Can't be done, I've tried. Try to find anything on PubMed that substantiates that claim. Not there.

And of course, Quaker doesn't actually make that specific claim. That's what the large type says, but the actual claim is this:

As part of a heart healthy diet, the soluble fiber in oatmeal helps reduce cholesterol.

Those first eleven words? You need a magnifying glass.

Well, yeah. As part of a heart healthy diet, raspberries and chocolate truffles help reduce cholesterol. And oatmeal probably doesn't make it worse, so I'm OK with it in my diet. I just resent Quaker's unsubstantiated hype.


When I graduated highschool (4.00 / 4)
I weighed 165lbs. I'm 5'5". I wanted to loose weight. I figured out the weight I wanted to be at - 135 - and then ate enough calories/day average to maintain that weight. At the time my mom found, somewhere, information that stated that on average, for a sedentary life, I needed to take in 10 calories/pound. It took me 6 months to get rid of the 35 lbs. but that's how I did it.

I used to bring the scale and measuring cups/spoons to the table. Drove my mom mad. At the time I was a professional horseshow photographer on the weekends and did animal portraiture, wildlife art and fantasy art during the week. So on the weekends I was fairly active, I was on my feet for 12-14 hours/day, which I count as moderately active, but during the week, even though I worked 12-14 hours/day, it was mostly sitting on my butt behind an easle.

I weigh more than that right now, but since I started farming in ernest in March, I have lost about 20lbs and 3 inches off my waist. Of course, most of what I'm eating right now are things like beans and rice and left over produce from the gardens....

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....


So if you used 10 calories per your (4.00 / 3)
desired weight, it would have been 1350 calories per day? A long way from 2000.

Thank you. A courageous project.


[ Parent ]
a 5'5" woman (4.00 / 3)
The 1983 Metropolitan Life "ideal weight" range for a medium frame 5'5" woman was 127-141 pounds. Middle of the range was 134 pounds.

I wonder what today's value is. The 1959 range was 117-132 pounds. I graduated from high school in 1959.


[ Parent ]
I also wonder (4.00 / 2)
what that ideal weight is if the woman is doing heavy lifting all day every day? When I first started working for other contractors, after my dad retired, one of the more common jobs I did was to run the mixer. This is a gas driven barrel mixer to make 'deck mud' which is the type of mortar used to set brick pavers, floor tile, or to prefloat a floor for grade. For 8 hours/day I shoveled sand and split 100# bags of portland cement. 1 batch, was, if I remember right, 18 shovels of sand, 1/2 bag of cement, 18 more shovels of sand, the rest of the bag of cement, enough water for the mix to hold a ball when compressed and bounced on the hand. 1 batch was 2-3 wheelbarrows worth of mud, and they'd haul it away as fast as I could make it usually, which was pretty fast. I don't even want to think about how many tons of sand I shoveled when I was a helper. At the time I weighed about the same as I did when I graduated from high school but had the same waist size as I did after I did the diet after graduation. Now, my shirts size, that changed completely....  

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....

[ Parent ]
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