Waxman & Peterson Have a Deal (and I Have a Cow)

Ummm . . . . (4.00 / 3)

Shouldn't there be ONE party that unambiguously supports cutting the military budget, a party that is straight up in favor of gun control, gay marriage, higher taxes on the rich, universal health care, legalizing pot, and steep, direct, taxing of polluters. These aren't radical ideas. A majority of Americans are either already for them or would be if they were properly argued and defended. And what we need is an actual progressive party to represent the millions of Americans who aren't being served by the Democrats - because bottom line: Democrats are the new Republicans.

The Green Party perhaps?

I really don't know why Bill is b!tching. Didn't he notice that Obama does tend to favor compromising with the Right (too much, imo). I thought that was fairly obvious through the whole process . . . .  

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by: nycstray @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 00:58:24 AM CDT

I always thought the Greens (4.00 / 4)

were pissing away their votes. But these Dems sure do make it easy to vote Green now with a clear conscience.
-----

The DNC called the other day begging for money. So I let the guy go on until he got to the "So can we count on you for the same as last time?"

"How much did I send you last time?" (before the election)

"A hundred dollars"

"Oh no. Make it 500!"

"REALLY?"

"Absolutely!"

"And how would you like to pay for that? VISA or a check?"

"Take it out of the my share latest war supplemental!"

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 08:58:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

HAHAHAHAHAHA (4.00 / 3)

That is AWESOME!

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 12:20:22 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I disagree AB (4.00 / 3)

Voting Green is a Vote for Republicans. As shitty as Dems can be, they will never be as bad as Republican. Not supporting the DNC is probably a wise move, but voting Green is pissing your vote away. If there were no Ralph Nader in 2K there would be no war supplementals.

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by: Curtis Abbey @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:38:49 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

4444's (4.00 / 2)

That's what I told Greenies when I was out registering voters. Now? Maybe the Dems need a kick in the face to get with the program.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:45:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

unglib answer, Curtis. (4.00 / 4)

I don't have that many elections left on my dance card.

I've just about given up hope of having an effect on Democrats (whom I've voted for for forty years,) so maybe if I and enough others like me swing to the Greens, we may finally wake the other two pilesofshite to the changing atmosphere.

What have I got to lose? I've never and would never vote for a Republican, but between all the losers I've backed, and the few winners I've $upported only to be betrayed, there's may be an alternative that'll let me sit on a bicycle and sleep at night too.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:56:16 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

K (4.00 / 3)

That makes sense for you, I just hope others don't follow in your footsteps and Dems don't lose more elections to Republicans via left 3rd party candidate involvement.

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by: Curtis Abbey @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 20:16:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Others should follow in those footsteps (4.00 / 3)

unless you want to watch the Dems keep walking farther right. We will never get progressive change if we stay on this path.

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by: nycstray @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 20:21:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And there's the dilemma... (4.00 / 3)

I'm more on the "take our Democratic Party back from the 'cautious' cowards and right-wing trolls" side of the debate; but these days I can see the arguments of both.

The flaw on the Green Party side's argument is - we may just see The End of Freedom (and very soon, at that) if progressives throw one or two more elections to current Republicans...

We ain't seeing Nelson Rockefeller or John Lindsay (heh, he left the R's in the early-70's!) or Mark Hatfield or Tom McCall or Cliff Case (or even once-upon-a-time-semi-decent guys like Tom Kean or Bob Dole or Gerald Ford) in the Republican Party anytime soon, if ever again.  

The choice these days comes down to either Democrats searching for spines (maybe we can help them find them again!), or Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee.  I'll pass on living in a theocracy...

As for the Greens, they're a relatively strong third party here in Oregon right now.  Even at that however, the Pacific Greens only manage to garner maybe 4 or 5 percent in a great year, and the votes they take certainly aren't from Republican candidates.

The sad part?  I don't think there's an immediate path we can take to improve politics on a national level.  It'll take a while, and imo what seriously set back the progressive movement in the US was the Clinton administration and 'mainstream' environmental / etc. organizations.  After that, we spent 8 years hanging on for dear life against a constant Bush assault, and now we have what will prove to be (sorry, it's gotta be said and I've always believed it) Bill Clinton 2.0.  This time, we can't take an 8-year breather.  Fight now, too.  We're doing that here right now, aren't we?

We'll get there eventually, but imo turning against Democrats isn't the answer.  Sorry if this is mostly a nonsensical rant, but that's just the way the entire American political system rubs me these days.

Bah...

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 20:43:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That seems like a false choice (4.00 / 3)

We're miles ahead of where we were six months ago, this path looks pretty good. One of the biggest problems we have is there aren't enough votes for Progressive legislation. If 3rd party involvement gets Republicans elected that will not help in that department. I say be careful when voting 3rd party that you're sending a message and not electing a Republican.

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by: Curtis Abbey @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 20:50:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

imo, in a tweener election (4.00 / 2)

a third party bump would put the Ds on notice. Th3 Rs aren't our opponent at the moment. Anybody can shoot themselves in the foot - the Ds are proof enough of that. The Rs have been busy shooting themselves in the neck for some time. Just take today as an example.

The loyal progressives of the Democratic Party are the Kleenexes to be used after the rim job; there when you need them, and as soon as they're used, thrown away. Again. And again. And again.

Why is it that the Rs can vote as a block? Why is it that the Ds can't? Because they don't have to?

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 21:23:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

But how would you define those? (4.00 / 3)

Just to give you an example, from my writings here this should come as no surprise - but I strongly dislike Jon Corzine.  However, were I still living in New Jersey there would be no debate.  I would not only vote for him again for governor this year, but I would be out knocking on doors for him every weekend, just like in 2005.

Why?  Because the only realistic alternative (right-wing knuckledragger Bret Schundler) was unthinkable.  This year, the same thing - Chris "Bobby Jindal" Christie, who has somehow managed to remain a "moderate", and a "blank slate" (with help of course from the so-called "liberal" media), despite the fact that he is in reality a Bushite Radical Right-Winger who has already stated he will reject stimulus funds from DC should he (FSM Forbid...) become governor of New Jersey.

Imo, no election is worth 'sending messages', when those 'messages' could very potentially backfire, and cause very serious and very real damage to very many people...

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 21:38:29 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't know... (4.00 / 3)

I just know that I am so tired of getting pissed on I can't described it.

The pragmatist in me knows I'd have to go "D" when the chips were down, but goddammit it gets harder all the time. The problem with getting involved with politics from a street level voter's perspective is that instead of shuffling along with your life and just voting every two years, you're much more aware of how often these people whom you've worn out your shoes and emptied your wallet for fuck you without as much as a reacharound.

Sorry for the stupidities above. I just had to blow off steam. /rant

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 21:58:56 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Oh, no problem! (4.00 / 2)

No need to apologize, man.  And I never thought anything you wrote was "stupid"...

This is the place for blowing off steam, friend! :)

I do understand how you feel, and maybe it's just that I haven't fully gotten there yet?  Yeah, it does get harder, and I'd never deny that...

Maybe it's just because I'm from New Jersey, and cynicism is bred in us.  But it's been enlightening to watch last year's ardent supporters of a certain current president come to certain realizations of late, as to who a certain somebody really is.  Welcome to the party, pals...

Yeah - we've been there, done that many times before.  But I can't give up on the D's, at least not yet.  They're my party as much as they're Collin "F'ing" Peterson's, and etc...

Then again, believe me - I don't blame anybody who feels it's about time they do.

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 22:14:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I wasn't talking about stabbing anybody (4.00 / 2)

I was talking about showing them the knife.

And I'm across the river in Gomorrah-on-the-Delaware. Cynicism was written into the City Charter.

How can Pelosi dare to say she doesn't think she have the votes? We've got a majority ferchrissake. Twist arms, threaten, blackmail, kidnap their kids if you have to. We're supposed to believe a bus full of Republicans can completely unhinge the majority party?

Yea, I'm pissed off.

I want something done. I hire a contractor. Together we come up with plans and an estimate. I lay down a deposit. The contractor does a certain amount of work and comes for the next portion of the payment.

But this contractor took the deposit, changed the plans without asking me, didn't get any apparent work done, tells me his crew can't seem to find their tools, and by the way... how about some more money.

So now I'm truly fucked. They set up camp in the house, drank all the milk so I can't have a decent cup of coffee, damn, where's the fucking coffee? So what do I do?

The other contractor in town went to work renovating the house next door. They were kind enough to leave the slab.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 22:44:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Sorry, done with the weasel dems (4.00 / 3)

It's much more fun being an Indie anyway {grin}  But, you hit the nail on the head, there are not enough progressives [votes].  And the President compromises to the Right before fighting. So I don't see the dems getting more progressive under his watch unless he keeps on trucking right and goes too far. That might do it . . . but remember, the president is a man who never, unless absolutely had to (Dem convention) associated himself as a Dem. He's also not much of a fighter unless it's about campaigning. We need a lot more fight to get real change/reform.

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by: nycstray @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 22:16:44 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Let's not forget... (4.00 / 2)

This President is further to the Right than the population as a whole.  It was really amusing to watch last year's Dem primary battles on the blogs, which was set up as a battle of 'left-v-centrist', despite the fact that both candidates were (and are) clearly center-right conservatives.

Okay, me?  I was for Edwards and then Biden, and then Edwards again (yes, both of which I realize are center-right conservatives as well...), before I ended up voting for Obama by default here in Oregon in the flurry of Democratic primaries (late May) that pretty much ended up guaranteeing him the nomination.

Like I said above, I can't (and don't) blame anybody for giving up on the Democrats.  But I'd like to suggest that maybe we can stick around for a bit, and fight to take over the party again.  It is, after all, our party as much as it is "theirs"...

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 22:27:14 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I don't do parties (4.00 / 3)

just individuals/causes going forward. I don't think Clinton would have sold out HCR, gays, women and she would have included Main St in the Wall St Bailout. She's more progressive in her independence than many are willing to see. It was easy to see, if one was looking, where O stood on women, gays, Main St and HCR. And then you add in he just wants to be one of da Boyz. ICK. Green Party is a bit too animal rights for me, but even if they manage to become a factor, I don't think they would have much influence there (but enough to get some positive welfare movement going). They def have more spine and aren't afraid to layout in black and green what they believe in. It's rather refreshing, especially these days when the so called Dems seem to have forgotten how Dems are supposed to act and worse, believe in.

I liked Edwards passion, and there are some things I like about Biden (even though he has some bad history, he is awfully "likeable"). I'm glad Clinton is SoS, she should make some progress for the good of women and children, those in poverty etc and you know she's gonna bust her butt trying to get as much done as possible. Sadly, she can't go whack Obama upside the head when he puts Kelley over at HHS Faith based and wants to expand the office and have it get more policy driven. At least my Rep is good at that. I suspect Gillibrand will be also some day soon, but by that time I'll be gone. Where I'm moving I'm going to be stuck with a Repub A-hole. Gawd I'm going to miss my Brooklyn Rep!!!! And here I finally got a Sen on the Ag committee!!! I just won't let on I moved  ;)

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by: nycstray @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 00:29:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Fwiw... (4.00 / 3)

I agree on most of what you said (except Hillary, she's slightly better than Bill but she ain't our friend by any means...); and I think (and always have thought) that Barack Obama managed to pull the biggest Con Job in history over on progressives.  Mostly young, naive ones with little to no actual political experience.

I've always seen right through Barack Obama to what he actually is; and sadly, I was right.

He had help from 8 years of The. Worst. "President". Ever., and his fantastic speaking powers / prowess - but honestly?  He's further to the right of even Bill Clinton on most issues.  And wtf is with the "compromise" bs?  

Why don't we just go all the way, and let John McCain be president on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays?  I mean, he did get about 3/7 of the vote, right?

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 00:42:01 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

She's a friend for women and children (4.00 / 2)

As a woman, I take what I can where I can. And she did some good things as a fresh/jr Sen. She really worked for the State. Was/am I always happy with her? No. But I do give her credit for what she did do (that I agree with, lol!~) and also for her work ethic (damn woman makes me tired some days!)

O is such a f***ing con job. And even if he wasn't, he isn't qualified and is too freakin' conservative and I have a few other words . . .  ;) And I certainly don't expect to be giving him props for much {sigh}

Bill and Hill may be center, but they do have decent thoughts/ideas and plenty of compassion for those that need someone to take some interest in them. Which is more than I can say with the current leadership. O/R/P that is. When Nanc said he was a gift from God, Oy. I actually would have preferred Michelle over her husband.

Like I said, I'm all about causes :) Chip away at things where I can. I'd rather fight like hell for equal rights, safe food etc, than pour my energy into a party that looks to the right. I'd like to see more Dems leave the party and fight like hell for what they believe in. I think it may be the only way to get some spine back in the party. Give the dollars to the causes, not the party/party of right liners.

Don't get me started on "compromise". He doesn't even do it right. He lowers his bar before he even gets to the table. (yes, I know, that should be "our" bar, not his)

One of the things that pissed me off about Edwards's affair, was I thought he had a decent chance to continue the fight he started and would have been a good person to push this admin. He had the passion behind his message. But then again, he started to look like a sell out in the end . . .  

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by: nycstray @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 02:01:30 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Yes to this! (4.00 / 3)

I actually would have preferred Michelle over her husband.

Same here.  She's better by a mile, at least...

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Jun 25, 2009 at 07:43:17 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

I was actually thinking (4.00 / 4)

of getting someone to run as a Green for township supervisor in my town, but I decided not to because I won't be here for the summer and that's when we would need to collect signatures and get the campaign started.  I might do something like that in 2010.

I definitely think we need a progressive third party, and as long as the Greens are the biggest one out there (unless you're in Vermont, then you've got the Progressives) I'll support them.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 11:37:50 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

wide eyed u gotz mail (4.00 / 3)

Why is it that the only people who seem capable of telling the truth are the comedians?

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 08:49:29 AM CDT

Now so do you! (n/t) (4.00 / 2)

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost

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by: wide eyed lib @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 09:54:52 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

and replied. I was ready, lol. n/t (4.00 / 2)

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 10:05:02 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

we need the Progressive Caucus (4.00 / 4)

to vote down this bill.

It would be better to pass nothing than this bill. Waxman should try again next year, and Obama should get more engaged in the process if he wants a decent climate-change bill.

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by: desmoinesdem @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 11:12:41 AM CDT

It's the Environmentalist who are pushing (4.00 / 4)

Cap & Trade.

If you follow this discussion on different blogs you will find that the Environmentalist are defending C & P to the death.

I don"t understand it but look to the Sierra Club and the rest of the Eviro Groups.

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by: OrganicGeorge @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 11:29:03 AM CDT

I guess they (4.00 / 2)

feel that it's this or nothing, and this is better than nothing.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 11:38:42 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

And here I thought (4.00 / 3)

with Cheney out of the picture we'd stop getting dicked every single time.

It's hell being so naive.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 12:54:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

In a way, Cheney was cruel (4.00 / 3)

to people like us.  It's one thing to have an image of pure evil to fight against, but it's another thing entirely to have the people you're fighting against be really ambiguously evil and sometimes on your side.

Vote for yourself at www.ni4d.us!

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by: rossl @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 21:10:54 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

they're probably (4.00 / 4)

just as sold out as the rest of 'em though. I don't really trust the enviro groups. Not the big, "credible" ones anyway.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 12:21:41 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Jill is this a variation of (4.00 / 4)

NEVER TRUST ANYONE OVER THE AGE OF 30?

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by: OrganicGeorge @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 14:37:39 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

And isn't Jill... (4.00 / 5)

already at the never-to-be-trusted age?  Or really close to it? So we can only trust her for a little longer? What then happens to LaVida when we can no longer trust her? ;-)

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by: DennisP @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 14:59:50 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

you've got a year and a half (4.00 / 4)

and then we'll need to find a younger blogger to run the site.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:05:30 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Am I... (4.00 / 3)

out in a few months too, then?

:)

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:14:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

is that you ShiftyinPortland? (4.00 / 3)

No, no, of course you won't be out. But you don't get the decorated cane or walker until you have your 25 year pin. Sorry, that's the rules.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:19:17 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'd prefer... (4.00 / 3)

"OldAssManinPortland" come October, tyvm!

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:20:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that comes with your 10 year pin. (4.00 / 3)

But you'll outgrow the "shifty" on your birthday. ;-)

October? October when?

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:23:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Well... (4.00 / 2)

that sucks.  I hate being a n00b!  There should at least be a welcoming card, or something?

The 12th.

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:31:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

oh there's a card and much more (4.00 / 2)

but we keep all that a secret so those damn kids don't start lying about their ages.

Oops! I guess it's not a secret any more.

The Foist here, Libra.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:35:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

(doing secret Libra handshake) (4.00 / 2)

Whoops, I guess that ain't a secret no more either!

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:42:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

that's all wrong anyway (4.00 / 2)

It's "Never trust anyone UNDER thirty" now. But unlike the old slogan, play your cards right and you can grow into this one.

Jill's under 30? Come to think of it, she does seem a little shifty. Not to worry, she'll be in with the hep cats soon enough.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:09:13 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

no, it's not (4.00 / 4)

the big enviro groups often partner or compromise w/ big corporations. The corporate PR strategy to deal w/ enviros is to either discredit them as crazy radicals or to co-opt them (which is what happens to the mainstream groups, very often).

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:06:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

which explains why (4.00 / 3)

all but a few pols turn out to be complete cow patties once they're elected.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:11:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Love that quote! (4.00 / 4)

New (eventual) sigline -

[O]ver the last thirty-odd years, Democrats have moved to the right, and the right has moved into a mental hospital.

:)

"Intelligent discontent is the mainspring of civilization." - Eugene V. Debs

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by: JayinPortland @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 15:11:50 PM CDT

G'night C & J jammies time n/t (4.00 / 3)

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

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by: Anonymous Bosch @ Wed Jun 24, 2009 at 23:31:13 PM CDT