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Day Two as a Vegan: Dreaming of Lattes

by: Jill Richardson

Mon Jun 15, 2009 at 12:17:12 PM PDT


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This marks Day 2 of my month and a half as a vegan. I'm doing this on a dare from a friend, and to see if my body feels any different (or better?) when I take away the eggs and dairy. Yesterday was easy. I had an awful headache. I hope Percocets are vegan because I took a few of those and then just went to bed. All I ate was an apricot and a nectarine. I was just too sick to fuss with food.

Today's a little harder. I'm in post-migraine mode (what I refer to as a "headache hangover"). Those who get migraines know what I'm talking about. I've eaten a baked potato, some oatmeal, an orange, a nectarine, and an apricot. But in my head, I keep dreaming of lattes. I made black coffee earlier but it really just didn't give me what I wanted. I wanted coffee. You know, with milk. The way I like it. So now my brain keeps thinking that the reason why I can't have coffee is because there's no milk in the fridge, and I keep coming up with ideas about stopping off at various coffee shops to pick up a latte.

I do want to note that I'm not doing this vegan challenge out of any belief that all people should be vegan or that no eggs or dairy are OK to eat. That's hardly the truth. When done right, animal agriculture can be good for the earth. The problem is that most of the time, our culture doesn't do it right. Many people (like Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono, who are now joining the Meatless Monday campaign) paint all meat or even animal products with the same broad brush, and that's not entirely correct. Factory farmed anything is bad for the planet. Sustainably farmed anything is good for the planet. Unfortunately, it's difficult to communicate complexity and it's much easier to tell people that all meat is bad.

I'm not sure what I'm going to eat next but it won't be a latte.

UPDATE: I just got an invite to an ice cream social emailed to me. 7pm, a few blocks from my apartment. Great. Maybe I'll go and watch all the other people eat ice cream.

Jill Richardson :: Day Two as a Vegan: Dreaming of Lattes
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You could always (4.00 / 5)
either buy or bring your own sorbet. I happen to love sorbets and I wouldn't feel particularly deprived.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


honestly i'm sure it'll be crap ice cream (4.00 / 5)
that I wouldn't eat anyway. But I love sorbet :)

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
soy (or coconut) ice cream (4.00 / 2)
maybe you won't do soy in your coffee but you really have to try some vegan ice creams.  They are so good.  Though none of the commercially sold ones quite compare to the raw coconut based ice cream at Pure Food and Wine. Yowsa.  The best ice cream, dairy or non, in the world!
I don't understand the objection to soy lattes -- they might not be quite the same as dairy, but they sure are delish --  but to each his (her) own.  But if the lack of milk is causing you to cut down on coffee, that could definitely be causing the migraines -- headache is a well known symptom of caffeine withdrawal.
Totally disagree that it's "true" that it's ok to eat eggs and dairy if they are raised in a certain way.  Not sure what "true" means here -- people have very different points of view on these things.  I think one's feeling about this issue, even at the absolutely most humane, sustainable level of production, really depends on how you think of animals and whether it's ok to exploit them. 'Cause there are inevitable ethical issues -- the discarding (or early deaths) of the males, the removal of babies from mothers, the exploitation of the reproductive system, the killing of the females when they are no longer "productive" -- to me it's ugly and unnecessary.

[ Parent ]
asdf (4.00 / 3)
vegan ice cream is tasty - the coconut bliss stuff anyway - but I don't quite see the justification for thai coconuts and vanilla from lord knows where and cocoa from lord knows where else when I can just eat some local sorbet from CA fruit. As a treat the coconut bliss ice cream rocks but as an ethical food choice not so much.

Re: my migraines - I've seen specialists all over the country. You better believe that anyone who has felt the pain of a migraine even once has done whatever it takes to make the pain go away. In my case, I gave up caffeine for over a year to no effect.

Re: raising animals the right way, I'd refer you to a few farmers I know who have chickens and sell eggs. The chickens live outdoors and get to scratch and peck and live like chickens. They are never, EVER killed and eaten. Their manure fertilizes the soil, they eat bugs (serving as pest control), and they provide eggs. So that is what i mean by raising animals the right way. That is very different from the system you are describing.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman


[ Parent ]
raising eggs (4.00 / 2)
Sorry about the headaches.  I didn't, of course, mean to imply that all headaches are caused by caffeine -- but it is pretty common so I thought there might be a connection.
Yeah, I guess coconut is never going to be available locally.  Nor is cocoa.  I make sure to buy it organic and fair trade (the cocoa trade is definitely very, very ugly) but it's still from far away.
I wasn't really describing particularly negative systems of raising animals -- just inevitabilities of eggs and dairy.  The farms you describe sound like a good ones, but I have never had an answer as to how, even in the most benign possible system, you don't end up with too many roosters and have to kill them, either as chicks or, later, for meat.  Do you know?  I would love to have an answer to that. And I guess it's possible to keep non-productive hens until they die -- and good for them that they do -- but it's got to raise production costs a lot to keep them alive, if money is an issue at all, which it generally is.  I guess most people would just think it's ridiculous to care about whether hens mind losing their eggs...?  (I don't think it's ridiculous -- I can't help it.)
What about dairy?  I have never heard any way to get rid of the males other than kill them for veal or, later, for beef.  And you have to take the babies away at some point before their mothers wean them -- otherwise they would drink the milk, right?  Isn't that the whole point? I know you don't have to take them away at birth, like in commercial production, but you have to do it at some point.


[ Parent ]
Jay's update! (4.00 / 5)
Yesterday was easy for me, too - I didn't eat much of anything.  Stuffed myself on strawberries, though! :)

Day 2 = coffee (black), asparagus (roasted), and I'm gonna have some emmer & sea beans & a salad (mixed greens, chopped carrot, fresh garlic, olive oil & balsamic).  No clue what dinner will be, but I'm thinking it'll revolve around black beans...

And -

I do want to note that I'm not doing this vegan challenge out of any belief that all people should be vegan or that no eggs or dairy are OK to eat. That's hardly the truth. When done right, animal agriculture can be good for the earth. The problem is that most of the time, our culture doesn't do it right. Many people (like Paul McCartney and Yoko Ono, who are now joining the Meatless Monday campaign) paint all meat or even animal products with the same broad brush, and that's not entirely correct. Factory farmed anything is bad for the planet. Sustainably farmed anything is good for the planet. Unfortunately, it's difficult to communicate complexity and it's much easier to tell people that all meat is bad.

Yes, agreed!

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


These pictures help tell that story (4.00 / 5)
that is hard to convey that all meat is not inhumanely raised or damaging to the environment.



Follup on this story (4.00 / 5)
I bought some Morris Grassfed beef a couple weeks ago, it's delicious. In fact I'm going to go cook it right now. I'm not just saying this because it lines up with my beliefs, it tastes better. It looks better, bright red not too fatty, not too lean.  

[ Parent ]
Nice! (4.00 / 4)
Just before I went vegetarian in 2007 (after being mostly-veg for quite a while before that...), I got my kid to start eating good meats - it took a bit to get used to, since she didn't live with me and with her other family was fed the typical American crap diet & fast "food" 5 or more times a week, etc...

But she loved it!  Especially the chicken, I guess I had a bit of a touch with that.  Heh...

Hopefully she'll stick with them in the future.  I'm glad I got to play my part as the "introducer" (that's not a word, but it fits!).

These days, my project is getting my mother into better food.  I managed to get her into farmers' markets just before I moved away from Jersey, and she still goes to them occasionally.  Which is something she never would have done otherwise.  They're lucky out there, btw - they have real Hoboken mozzarella and Italian breads, ravioli, etc. at their markets out there!

Anyways...

She's coming out here in a few days, so I'll be able to brainwash her, heh (and take her to the gigantic Saturday PSU market!) and show her how good real food (and beer!) is at some of the better restaurants and brewpubs here.  My sister and my nieces are coming out in August, too - so I'll "get them" then! Lol...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
I love my upstate grass fed meats (4.00 / 5)
Sirloin tonight will prob top a salad and I'll have some veggies and rice also. I'll roast up one of my chickens mid week and use leftover meat for a veggie stir fry and the bones will be used for broth which along with the rest of the left over meat will be canned for soup and other uses down the road. I also have pork and turkey in the freezer. I just remembered while typing this there is actually a whole turkey in the freezer, lol!~ My pets like my upstate meals also and I usually plate one up for the dog. The cats usually just get the meat part of the meal.

[ Parent ]
factory farming and lattes (4.00 / 3)
Why don't you go out and get yourself a soy lattes? And before you say anything about the unbearable taste of soy milk, I urge you to try one. I swear most people can't even tell the difference. Even my boyfriend now has soy lattes...
Now, regarding your headaches, coffee will probably not help... As you probably know, coffee is a diuretic and as a consequence, dehydrates you. And dehydration = headache...
And finally, I would like to comment on the 'When done right, animal agriculture can be good for the earth'.
Are you aware of the fact that it takes about 2,500 gallons of water to produce 1 pound of meat when it only takes 25 gallons of water to produce one pound of wheat?
I am not even talking about the deforestation and surface of land used solely to grow crops to feed animals when this same surface could grow enough food to put an end to starvation in the world.
Eating animal products has a very large consequence on our environment, the carbon footprint of this industry is way heavier than the one of any other industry, even greater than the automobile industry.
And I am not even talking about the cost on your health... or the ethical involvements of using and slaughtering animals for a food that we don't need to thrive.

i was a vegan for a year in 2006 (4.00 / 4)
I still don't like soy lattes. Although I admit they taste better than just plain soy milk in coffee. Also tried (and rejected): soy creamer, almond milk, hemp milk, and rice milk in coffee.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
Have you checked the carbon footprint (4.00 / 4)
on your vegan diet? Are all your glutens, soy and protein concentrates local?

And as far as how much water it takes to produce a pound of meat, do you have a link for that? Interesting that wheat takes so little . . .


[ Parent ]
Various Google pages (4.00 / 3)
Search: water per pound of beef (Front page only)

range from 435 gallons to 1500 gallons.

Interestingly, from New Dream .Org...

By comparison, soybeans require 240 gallons per pound, wheat,109 gallons, ...

A quick whois doesn't reveal much. But doesn't appear to be an industry shill.

Hmmm. Went in and read the principles. Maybe they should be of LVL's blogroll.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
Thanks! Interesting . . . (4.00 / 5)
Considering all factors in beef cattle production including direct consumption, irrigation of pastures and crops, and carcass processing, it takes 435 gallons of water to produce a pound of boneless beef, according to the CAST 1999 Animal Agriculture and Global Food Supply Report.

The cow I'm eating was pasture raised except for supplemental grains and grasses (local/neighboring farm) in the winter months, so I'm betting it's less than the feedlot cattle. And summer crops may take less water here depending on how much summer rain we get. We're already almost 4" above last June's total rainfall. I grew up where it turned brown every summer, so even after 20yrs here, I'm always amazed at how green the summers are here.

For the vegan diet, there's also the consideration that soy and wheat gluten (another step in the process) and protein concentrates are generally not eaten as a whole food and still have at least one more processing plant to go through before they are packaged.

Here's an interesting comparison:
(sorry for the caps! Copy/paste!)

Beef Burger: 100% grass fed beef

Gardenburger Veggie Medleyยฎ: COOKED BROWN RICE (MEDIUM GRAIN BROWN RICE, WATER), BROCCOLI, WATER, CARROTS, ONIONS, WHOLE KERNEL CORN, ROLLED OATS, BROWN LENTILS, RED BELL PEPPERS, GREEN BELL PEPPERS, OAT FIBER, GROUND FLAXSEED, CONTAINS TWO PERCENT OR LESS OF CANOLA OIL, ONION JUICE CONCENTRATE, SALT, METHYLCELLULOSE, NATURAL FLAVORS, SOY SAUCE (FERMENTED SOYBEANS, SALT), AUTOLYZED YEAST EXTRACT, HYDROLYZED WHEAT GLUTEN, EVAPORATED CANE JUICE, SPICES, CARAMEL COLOR, GARLIC POWDER, YEAST EXTRACT, ONION POWDER, SOY LECITHIN.

Gardenburgerยฎ GardenVegan:
BULGUR WHEAT WITH WATER FOR HYDRATION, WATER, TEXTURED WHEAT PROTEIN (WHEAT GLUTEN, WHEAT FLOUR), COOKED BROWN RICE (BROWN RICE, WATER), ONIONS, MUSHROOMS, CONTAINS TWO PERCENT OR LESS OF MODIFIED VEGETABLE GUM, WHEAT GLUTEN, AUTOLYZED YEAST EXTRACT, GARLIC POWDER, SALT, NATURAL FLAVOR, SPICES, ANNATTO FOR COLOR, OLIVE OIL, CARAMEL COLOR, SOY LECITHIN.

I see a heck of a lot of growing and processing to make both of those vegan burgers . . . not to mention country of origin on the ingredients. We all know where they are cheaper . . . anywhere but here!


[ Parent ]
There is a difference, though... (4.00 / 2)
Between a whole-foods based vegan diet, and a highly processed crap vegan diet.  I would never go for the latter...

Gardenburger isn't a fair comparison, because it's corporate crap.  My black bean burgers, on the other hand, are pretty simple and very traceable (and great, when they hold together, lol, but even when not they're still good...).

A portabella burger is even simpler!

:)

I'm doing pretty good on emmer & beans & market produce so far...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
So, how do you hold a bean burger together? (4.00 / 2)
In my Po' days we used to eat a lot of lentil burgers. Lentils, grated carrot, grated onion and EGG.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

[ Parent ]
Very carefully :) (4.00 / 1)
Bread crumbs work, most of the time.  And onion.  I've never used egg in mine, mainly because I'm lazy I think?  Might be why I have problems, heh...

As long as it makes it out of the pan and onto the bun mostly in one piece, from there I call it good!

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
Mrs.B's Crabcakes (4.00 / 2)
This one's a toughy. Preparation takes, oh..., minutes.

1 pound lump crabmeat
1 egg

Here comes the hard part...

Mix together
Make patties
Drop into sizzling butter
Turn over once.

Spoon onto plates.  

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
Back when I was very poor (4.00 / 1)
(2 of us living outside NYC on $15k annually) I went to a produce place that gave away a free 5 lb bag of potatoes or a free 3 lb bag of onions for every $5 worth of purchased produce. We ate a lot of potatoes and onions, and sometimes not a lot else.

Cooked correctly, you can take advantage of the starch in potatoes to bind things. I first experimented with hashbrowns and found that if you grate starchy potatoes (*not* new or red potatoes) right before forming the patties, don't make the patties too large (4" across max), put them into a very hot, well seasoned cast iron skillet with olive oil, turn the heat to medium, press firmly once, and then leave them completely alone for a good 3-5 minutes, before flipping and again leaving alone for 3-5 minutes, the starch has time to set and bind the hashbrown together. The bottom should be uniformly brown (a little bit beyond golden) and crispy before flipping.

After I got good at that, I experimented with add-ins. A small amount of grated onion and/or some mashed beans work well, as do things like carrots. The mixture has to be mostly potatoes, though.

I lived in a heavily Dominican neighborhood, and so there were lots of unusual starchy veggies around: batatas, coco malanga, real yams (called name, pronounced nahm-aye) and of course underripe plantains, all of which can be used as binders in this way, though some (like real yams) work better than others.

Real yam does not equal sweet potato, by the way. Real yams are enormous roots with actual bark on them. Super starchy and not at all sweet.

Anyway, it's possible to bind veggie burgers (and possibly even crab cakes) with root starch. I'm pretty sure that's the basis of commercial vegan egg replacers.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
Very true (4.00 / 3)
But (there's always a but right?) not all vegans eat local. Many try to "replace" reg food with a began substitute. There wouldn't be big processors doing this if they didn't. And when you eat vegan out, you* need to do the same research I do as to where the food comes from, otherwise, what's the point?

Even if you try and eat local whole foods, I've seen many a vegetarian and vegan not. I've been to enough restaurants etc with them and because it's a veggie they will eat it. I see the same thing when I shop the local organic stores. People buying name brand organic and/or vegan food. It's made by the same folks that bring you* the crap you* claim is bad. I guess that would be vegan/vegetarian washing?

I picked Gardenburger because it was a name that popped quickly into my head. My main point is, how many buy vegan and actually wonder about the origin of ingredients? I see an awful lot of these brands (large and small) in the stores, so they must be selling. Does vegan/vegetarian  become (is) the next processed food pitfall?

Question :)  how do you balance your protein etc with a whole food vegan diet? Is it a bean combo thing? (seriously asking, not being a brat!) I'm just wondering because it seems to me most vegans would want whole food, but there is all that crap out there.

*you is a general you, not you!


[ Parent ]
non-expert talking here... (4.00 / 2)
I've heard that rice and beans together make a complete protein.

Is it paranoid to wonder if the big processors are being faithfully vegan?

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
That's what I've heard/know also (4.00 / 1)
but is there more than just eating a rice and bean mix everyday? As a non-vegan, and even if I was just a vegetarian, I would have the egg option and dairy. My diet now is rotational. I eat meats some days, others I don't. Eggs come in as do rice and beans etc. As a whole food, what are the other options for a vegan?

Big processors faithfully vegan?! Surely you jest!! {yes, I'm very jaded!!}


[ Parent ]
About protein... (4.00 / 1)
the complete protein thing is way overblown. There are 8 amino acids that the human body doesn't produce itself but still needs to function. Let's call them a, b, c, d, e, f, g and h. Putting beans with rice, or beans with corn or potatoes with cheese used to be called making a "complete protein" because the combo contains a-h.

But you don't need to eat a-h in every meal. If you have lots of a's, b's and c's in one meal but no d's through h's, your body will store the excess a's, b's and c's for a couple of days until you eat some d's through h's.

In other words, as long as you eat the full array of amino acids within a few days' time, your body will do the assembly for you.

It's not at all difficult to get all 8 amino acids in a reasonable time span as long as you eat a somewhat varied diet. There's protein in just about every whole food (fruits, veggies, beans, grains, etc.), and every food has a unique balance of amino acids.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
I don't usually... (4.00 / 2)
think about it, because I'm not vegan.  Well, except for the next 7 weeks...

:)

how do you balance your protein etc with a whole food vegan diet? Is it a bean combo thing?

But yeah, rice & beans.  Always been a staple of my diet, even back before I went vegetarian.

I honestly don't think I'll become vegan after this - but there's definitely a chance that, if I feel better (not that I feel "bad" at all now, but I suppose I could always feel better in some ways?), I'd cut way down on eggs & cheese, etc... from what I did before.  Save money, too!  Heh...

The way I'm doing this, myself, is just the way I've already eaten for years - minus the eggs, cheese and cream.  Worth the experiment to see how I feel, imo :)

As for who buys the most processed foods, I'd say it's still clearly non-vegans, even as an overall percentage of each.

I never claimed vegan = locavore, but I am (at least for the next 7 weeks)! :)

My main point is, how many buy vegan and actually wonder about the origin of ingredients?

How many buy cheeseburgers or chicken nuggets or factory farmed eggs, etc... and actually wonder about the origin of ingredients?  That's certainly not just a problem with vegans / vegetarians...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
Eggs and cheese, oh yea, I remember those (4.00 / 2)
They're a garnish and treat I have once or twice a year. Salt is history too. Even buttered anchovy sandwiches which were two of the four basic food groups on bread are a thing of the past. Took a while to not salting everything before tasting it, but not it seems normal. Everything tastes sweeter though.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

[ Parent ]
Ah, but the thing is (4.00 / 2)
a majority of America isn't eating for a "reason" other than to eat. So it doesn't matter if they buy more processed/factory farmed in my question. It's about the vegans and vegetarians and what they eat vs the processed food made for them :) Like I mentioned, I've eaten with vegetarians who go for the veggies, but the question of conventionally grown vs organic isn't as big an issue as to whether it's a veggie or not. It's rare in [let's say] a working situation where we go in search of food ,the vegetarian will be concerned about what kind of (how it's grown) vegetable they get. Same thing with going out to dinner. They (we) make sure veggie options are on the menu, but no concern where they are from/how they are grown. Go in a natural food store, the food is not all organic and much of it is processed. So unless they are being responsible about their food choices, they are supporting big Ag. That bag of carrots, that salad from the salad bar, that meal at the restaurant, that soy milk at the grocer . . .  see where I'm going :)

And again, I understand what you are doing and where you will get your food. I do wonder on how you plan to balance your food, but not as much as I wonder about processed vegan/vegetarian food that seems to have a large presence, which means they have a market :)


[ Parent ]
an expert on vegan (4.00 / 2)
because of my daughter. She's been a vegan since 14. And we took her to see a nutritionist at age 13. She's 19 and her Dr who has lots of vegan parents says she has the healthiest diet of any of her patients. DISCLOSURE>>>>>My daughter lost her period from age 13-15. She was too thin. Too complicated to explain here but after putting some weight on the period came back. She eats vegan at school which sometimes mean eating crappy peanut butter and has a really good attitude of not forcing her beliefs on anyone and picking the battles because you cannot fight everything. Since I have been eating vegan a typical day for her will include. Moms (mine) home made bread with peanut butter and some fruit for breakfast. Scrambled tofu with veggies for lunch and dinner last night was seitan with vidalia onions and rosemary,tabbouli and salad
about protein combining.

Frances Lappe was the bible for us boomers in the 70s changed her position on protein combining. In this later edition, Lappรฉ wrote:

From wikipedia


   "In 1971 I stressed protein complementarity because I assumed that the only way to get enough protein ... was to create a protein as usable by the body as animal protein. In combating the myth that meat is the only way to get high-quality protein, I reinforced another myth. I gave the impression that in order to get enough protein without meat, considerable care was needed in choosing foods. Actually, it is much easier than I thought.

   "With three important exceptions, there is little danger of protein deficiency in a plant food diet. The exceptions are diets very heavily dependent on [1] fruit or on [2] some tubers, such as sweet potatoes or cassava, or on [3] junk food (refined flours, sugars, and fat). Fortunately, relatively few people in the world try to survive on diets in which these foods are virtually the sole source of calories. In all other diets, if people are getting enough calories, they are virtually certain of getting enough protein."



[ Parent ]
Lee's veganish diet.. (4.00 / 6)
Ok...

is Sauvignon blanc vegan? I'm sad and shit faced drinking wine as Tues. I drive my daughter to Newark airport Tues afternoon for her flight to India. She will be there 2 and a half months. I have been crying all day.It's the longest we have gone with out seeing each other as she's at college close by. Food is my drug of choice and not going to be easy..I have a feeling you will be hearing a lot from me as I change my way of eating and drop the weight. I went shopping at the food coop and bought seitan and cheese for me. Not eating meat is ok but like Jill I am having a hard time with no dairy.


(((LeeN))) (4.00 / 4)
Hi!

:)

We're here for you.  Talk to us all you want, we're listening!  You're amongst friends here.

I will have a beer later, and raise it to you! :)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
thanks.. (4.00 / 5)
its a mixed bag..My daughter has opportunities I never had..And I'm glad for her.
But its still hard for me...



[ Parent ]
Understood... (4.00 / 4)
I can see how that's rough.  Wishing youze both the best!

From a Jersey guy to a Jersey Girl. :)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
Will she have any internet access (4.00 / 3)
at points while she's there? If so, you could arrange skype dates, and they're free :)

[ Parent ]
she's not taking her lap top (4.00 / 3)
her host family doesn't have access. But she will be in Jodhpur where there's internet cafes so we will do Skype

[ Parent ]
I hear ya on that (4.00 / 2)
I went to China for 2 mos one summer where I didn't have tons of ability to communicate w/ my family. I had internet I could pay for, which I used for an hour every day, and nearly no phone. But my family is different than yours - I was eager to not talk to them for an entire summer. I wish I could still do that.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
I'm sorry to hear that you're so sad (4.00 / 4)
{{{Hugs}}} to you! I know it sounds trite, but just take one day at a time and the months will pass.

In case your question is serious, most wine isn't even strictly vegetarian, much less vegan, though a lot depends on how strict your definitions of vegetarian and vegan are. The process used to clarify wine often involves animal proteins.

Here's an article from the American Vegan Society that talks about this issue.

FWIW, honey and some kinds of sugar aren't considered vegan either.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
Well, that seals it for me (4.00 / 5)
NOT. giving. up. my. wine. {grin}

[ Parent ]
Ah, but there *is* vegan wine... (4.00 / 4)
that uses non-animal clarifying agents. You just have to look for it and be willing to spend a bit more $.

Again, a lot depends on how strict you're being. Apparently, some vegan define it as no animal products present in the final product, and others define it as no animal products involved in the production, whether or not they end up in the final product.

The way I understand it, if you define vegan the first way, wine is vegan, but if you define it the second way, wine is neither vegetarian nor vegan.

Fanatical vegans argue about these issues all the time.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
When I get to CA (4.00 / 5)
I plan on getting into wine making. What goes into it will depend on safety, how it was processed, etc. I may well end up with vegan wine, but hard to say as I remember reading something about something going into wines that came from China. What I do remember is they listed some of the brands {need to look for the list} that stated they didn't.

Fanatical vegans argue about these issues all the time.

yeah, those same arguments spill over in whether pets should be vegan or not. If I ever went vegetarian (not giving up dairy or eggs unless my health needs it or I can't get sustainable/humanely raised), I would not subject my pets to my choices. They'll still get their required natural diets (humanely raised meats etc). My senior kitty, who has lost many teeth, still can rip away at a hunk of meat on bone with the best of them. There's a reason for that :) My preferred dog breed can go vegetarian (with dairy/eggs) if necessary. They have a genetic issue that sometimes requires it. I let Momma Nature be my guide :)

My skeptic self wonders how much better vegan is for the environment vs vegetarian and sustainably raised. If you lived in a country where they produced (for domestic use) a lot of organic soy, glutens, and protein concentrates, perhaps it would be responsible, but in the USA is it? Of course I don't eat processed food, so that could pose a problem also.


[ Parent ]
Yes, agreed... (4.00 / 3)
yeah, those same arguments spill over in whether pets should be vegan or not. If I ever went vegetarian (not giving up dairy or eggs unless my health needs it or I can't get sustainable/humanely raised), I would not subject my pets to my choices. They'll still get their required natural diets (humanely raised meats etc). My senior kitty, who has lost many teeth, still can rip away at a hunk of meat on bone with the best of them. There's a reason for that :) My preferred dog breed can go vegetarian (with dairy/eggs) if necessary. They have a genetic issue that sometimes requires it. I let Momma Nature be my guide :)

Yes! :)

I've always been a little creeped out by that.  Especially when it comes to cats.  They are by design obligate carnivores, and feeding them any other kind of diet is just wrong.

For me, 7 weeks vegan is worth the experiment, see how my body responds - it certainly isn't some kind of moral thing.  And I will never have anything to do with vegangelicals myself, even if I did somehow end up as a permanent vegan after this...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
I could give up eggs for 7 weeks, I think, lol!~ (4.00 / 5)
but dairy is a no. :)

I def understand experimenting to see how it effects things with your body and life. I noticed one heck of a dif when I gave up the little bit of processed food I ate. I also notice a dif when the CSA season starts back up (and I also get more sun!). Back to eating seasonal kale, chard, etc is sheer heaven for me. Now I have the eggs, beans and flours added with the chickens and fruit. I feel I am getting so much more when I eat.

Vegan cat feeding drives me NUTS!!! And yes, they are being fed by "vegangelicals"! Thanks for that word!!!  :) I personally consider it close to abuse. My cats like veggies and eat (steal) them, but if you think I'm going to feed them fake processed protein* along with veggies . . .  

I ended up a pretty dedicated "sustainable", and my friends understand. Whole joke is, I never asked them to, lol!~ But they do take it into consideration when we do things. They also know it's going to be good for them and taste good ta boot  ;)

*I consider it fake as it's not the protein their bodies were designed for.


[ Parent ]
Does this part (4.00 / 5)
and others define it as no animal products involved in the production, whether or not they end up in the final product.

mean that if you use animal manure to fertilize your crops, they wouldn't be considered vegan by some? That's confusing, animal manure is an animal product.

When my dad made wine he always used diatomaceous earth to filter it, as well as paper filters. Is that what you were talking about regarding using animal products?

I can understand the issue with the honey. Honey is to bees as eggs are to birds, kind of.  

Regarding locavores as elitists - explain to me how supporting local business is elitist....


[ Parent ]
I'm not sure, actually (4.00 / 1)
We've definitely reached the outer limits of my extreme vegan knowledge, but my guess would be that the strictest vegans would probably consider plants grown in soil where manure was deliberately applied to be non-vegan. The reasoning is similar to honey, actually, in that the animals supplying the manure are being exploited.

I know that seems kind of crazy. I was a not-terribly strict vegan for a short time in college until I realized that I would never be able to each sushi again. :)

Yes, using diatomaceous earth (which, for those of you who don't know, consists of the skeletons of microscopic animals) would definitely qualify as animal products to some vegans. Are there vegan issues with paper filters, too? But I think the biggest issue with the way wine is clarified is similar to how some French stocks (like consumme) are clarified: you put in some egg whites and the egg protein "catches" all the impurities and rises to the top so that you can remove it. I don't think it's egg whites that are commonly used to clarify wine, but it's some kind of protein that performs the same function.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
Oh, yes! (4.00 / 4)
Thanks for saying that, btw - I've never personally been much into wine, but it did surprise me a few years back when I found that out.

There are many vegan wines around these parts these days though, as you also mentioned...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
Do they say it on the label? (4.00 / 5)
My wine shop carries organic, as does another place that I can get NYS wines. I've never tried to look for vegan.

[ Parent ]
Yes... (4.00 / 4)
It's a selling point around here, in the most-vegetarian-friendly city / region in America...

:)

I don't know about elsewhere, but I do believe vegan wine is currently a rapidly-growing market...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
I'm not really sure (4.00 / 3)
We've reached the limits of my knowledge on this topic. I have a few strict vegan friends, so I'm aware of the issues with wine but I've never really looked into it.

Ask your wine merchant about vegan wines; in NYC they'll probably carry some. It wouldn't surprise me if most organic wines were also vegan. If you have a favorite NYS winery, send them an email. Also, for some reason I think that kosher wines might be vegan, and there are definitely organic kosher wines.

You could also call Counter or Pure Food and Wine (not during dinner service, obviously) and ask them about their wine lists. Pure Food in particular prides itself on being entirely vegan, yet they serve wine. Presumably they've done the research.

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
I forgot about Kosher (4.00 / 4)
I also look at strict kosher on some products because their methods gel with some of my goals.

Thanks for the suggestions :) I'm going to check them out and look into it more. I'm guessing the animal product they use isn't always (never?) from practices I want to support and anything else I would prefer not to be from China, lol!~ That stopped me from buying sausage casings. Many come from the wrong practices and sources. Luckily, I've learned of a place in walking distance from me that carries the "right" kind. Cooking and eating can be a challenge some days :)


[ Parent ]
hugs (4.00 / 4)
that sounds rough... don't know what else to say.

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
[[[LeeN]]] (4.00 / 2)
Those are the brusk manly hugs ;-)

Why don't you come over for some pick-your-own string beans in a couple of weeks?

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
Right there with you (4.00 / 5)
Jill, I've been toying with the idea of going vegan for a while now and your month-an-a-half is just such a nice sample-sized period of time that I went for it.  I'm also off alcohol for the next 6 weeks-- a much needed break no doubt, but I suspect it will make the lack of eggs and dairy feel like a breeze...Just wanted to say hi, thanks for the trial period and I'm off to make some tempeh!

Awesome! (4.00 / 4)
Do let us know how it goes for you!

I remember a little organic vegan grocery / deli back in Jersey (Balance Health Foods on Rt 22 East in Lebanon, Hunterdon County - a place you would not expect something like that to exist!) that did the most incredible tempeh "chicken" salad ever.  I've never been much for tofu or tempeh, seitan, etc...

But that stuff?

Omg, I could have lived forever on it!  Thanks for reminding me, I think I'm gonna try to figure out how to do that stuff myself soon...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens


[ Parent ]
Jay... (4.00 / 2)
that stand in the reading terminal that sells vegan cheese steaks makes the best vegan chick salad. I am going to try making that also.

Do you use vegan mayonaise?

Jill..Jay...I'm older than you so I need less protein. Do you know how much protein you need per day?


[ Parent ]
hehe look forward to your updates (4.00 / 5)
I just went to the co-op for a guilty-pleasure lunch as a "junk food vegan" i.e. chicken-less salad made with veganaise an seitan (YUM). was planning to buy vegan cake of some sort too but I didn't like what they had. not a fan of brown rice syrup really. Oh - and I was a good girl and ate some kale stuff and some cashew stuff with my junk.  

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

[ Parent ]
the Bittman recipe (4.00 / 2)
for vegan chocolate pudding is delish..

[ Parent ]
This vegan chocolate cake is yummy and easy to make (0.00 / 0)
You can omit the glaze. Of course, the local thing with chocolate is difficult...

http://www.recipezaar.com/Six-...

I wish I knew half what the flock of them know
Of where all the berries and other things grow,
Cranberries in bogs and raspberries on top
Of the boulder-strewn mountain, and when they will crop.
--"Blueberries" by Robert Frost


[ Parent ]
??!! (2.00 / 1)
Humanly raised meat... are you all insane??!! What is humane about raising an animal, using it for milk or eggs and then making it into a burger when you can't get anything out of it anymore...?
The fact that the animal was eating organic crops and saw the sunlight does not mean he was enjoying getting its milk taken and was ok to go get slaughtered.
I's not 'humane' to slaughter an animal.

 


It's a comparative phrase (4.00 / 4)
Compare it to nature or factory farming. If you have a practical bone in your body you'd realize and support the benefits of humanely raised meats and eggs for those of us that choose to consume them.

[ Parent ]
That's very wrong. (4.00 / 4)
You don't get all the milk or eggs out of them and then make burgers out of them when they're old and worn out. The burgers would be way too tough.

Everybody dies.
Even Elsies.
Dairy cows make milk. You don't have to put a gun to their heads. Making milk is what dairy cows do. Organic crops, grass mostly, which ruminants are supposed to eat, sunlight (and rain, though they don't like the rain,) lots of pasture to run around in; it's hogheaven (so to speak.) They make milk because they make more milk than the baby cows can drink. After a while the baby cows grow up and the cows don't have any more milk. That's when the boy cows come along and give the girl cows a good schtuping, and along comes another baby cow. Next thing you know - more milk. And so it goes.

So, yes, you can treat cows with respect and humanely. Or you can pump them full of hormones and keep them in a cramped cage, which is abuse.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
And what should the hens do with all those eggs (4.00 / 5)
they lay? They don't even need a good schtuping!

Such an inhumane way to live:



[ Parent ]
I wasn't going to mention that part (4.00 / 4)
I guess they're supposed to bury them or something.

Looks like a pretty happy chicken to me.

Was reading a very interesting article just now.

Aside from no longer financing the U.S. buyout of their own industries  and the U.S. military encirclement of the globe, China, Russia and other countries would no doubt like to enjoy the same kind of free ride that America has been getting. As matters stand now, they see the United States as a lawless nation, financially as well as militarily. How else to characterize a nation that proclaims a set of laws for others - on war, debt repayment and treatment of prisoners - but flouts them itself? The United States is now the world's largest debtor yet has avoided the pain of "structural adjustments" imposed on other debtor economies. U.S. interest-rate and tax reductions in the face of exploding trade and budget deficits are seen as the height of hypocrisy in view of the austerity programs that Washington forces on other countries via the IMF and other Washington vehicles.


Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.

[ Parent ]
All the chickens on the farm were happy :) (4.00 / 5)
pecking their way around, taking dirt baths etc. Pretty friendly lil' gals n' guys. One woman commented that they weren't phased at all by her stroller. They walked right up to it. And since it was 3 farms kinda meeting, you could see some other chickens over in the pasture with the donkey. The ones I photographed were hanging with some young barn cats and goats. I'm guessing if I would have hiked across the fields to where the lambs were, I would have seen the pastured chickens that are being raised for our CSA. It was too far though after a long day of planting, lol!~

Thanks for the article link. Gonna have to read in the AM when my brain has had more sleep :)


[ Parent ]
Bathing in dirt? (4.00 / 3)
That sounds kind of exploitative. Were they filming chicken porno?

If even half the article comes to pass. we're in deep guano.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
The pics didn't turn out that great (4.00 / 4)
but they sure were having fun. I should have tried to 'burst" shoot it, but I wasn't thinking fast enough. If we go in porno terms, it was a dirt orgy. There were 4 or 5 having a good roll and fluff  {grin}.

All the animals I encountered that day were just so relaxing to watch. Same reason I like living with them. The donkey was so cute. He couldn't wait to come over and greet me once I trained my camera on him. The goats gave everyone a big welcome. And the little bottle lamb {sigh} so sweet.

{now thinking twice about reading the article}


[ Parent ]
Don't read it tonight, you won't sleep. (4.00 / 3)
It's TEOTWAWKI in economic terms.

Don't worry about the critters. I knew just from the picture the hens were content. You can't argue with a banana.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
eh, it wasn't any longer about the banana (4.00 / 2)
just me thinking back on the day :) It was kinda funny, I was going up to plant and was hoping the fields we were planting butted against the farm fields that raise our chickens and lambs so I could see the baby lambs. Didn't occur to me I would get so much "face time" with the animals :)

The coordinator of our core group for the CSA is now raising chickens. She just recently finished her coop and moved them outside. City chickens! It was nice having the last meeting at her place as they were gently chattering/cooing in the background (they were still too young for outdoors/weather sucked) :) I'm now happily getting eggs via another farmer who's supplying to our CSA. Not only do I like them for cooking, they are good for my pets who like them also.


[ Parent ]
Our guys won't eat real food (4.00 / 1)
just cat food.

Over the years we've had one who loved corn; any kind of corn; fresh off the cob, cooked, even cornchips. Another one loved peas; same deal, any way any time. Another one only liked turkey, but it had to be BBQ'd with chili sauce.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
Finished the article (4.00 / 1)
It postulates the end of the US Military Industrial Complex.

I am overjoyed, no matter what the consequences.

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
From what I've been told (4.00 / 3)
dairy cows get pretty agitated if you don't milk them when you're supposed to. So they probably enjoy being milked in more or less the same way that you or I enjoy that feeling of not having to go to the bathroom any more.

I have succumbed to the Twitter craze. @Omir55

[ Parent ]
Yep. But it was "Elsies 101" (4.00 / 2)
And I wasn't quite up for spilling 4500 words on the subject. And by the grace of MrsB's better judgment I didn't spill the 1000 words I'd laid out for the budmeister this morning. Thank God for cooler heads, huh.

Elsewhere in these comments it's been pointed out that it's pretty difficult to be vegan and local given where a lot of the ingredients come from.

So be it. Ya makes yer choices. Some prefer to spare the planet, (and the animals,) from the environmental costs of meat raising, factory or otherwise, at the expense of eating their meals from foodstuffs from the other side of the planet. Some prefer to spare the planet, (and the animals,) from the environmental costs of raising meat in a cruel industrial fashion.

For what it's worth, I spent a couple of hours reading about meat-eating primates earlier tonight. We're not alone. And we're not insane. (For that reason. The rest is debatable.)

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


[ Parent ]
We're having vegan something or other tomorrow. (4.00 / 4)
I already forgot what it's going to be. I did ask if there was any meat in "it" - the dinner. To my surprise the answer was "no." I'm pretty sure there won't be any dairy in it either. But I didn't want to seem too interested or press too far in my inquiry for fear of Mrs.B thinking I'd gone completely around the bend (again) veganism-wise. She's just getting over my delusions of renting buses and storming the Capital.

It may seem like a conundrum, and I suppose it is. While I enjoy planting; poke a seed in the ground, add water, pick up food. It's like building things, which is what I've done since infancy. But the actual food part leaves me non-plused. Oh sure, I enjoy the food when it's on the plate in front of me, but I'll also eat absolutely anything with no preference or prejudice.

Memories of tonight's dinner are still clear as a bell. Last night? Well, we must have had something because I didn't wake up hungry.

Good Luck, Jill, Jay, and whoever else is climbing on the wagon!!!

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


I know it's going to be difficult, Jill, so... (4.00 / 3)
here's some creative help to make the meals more interesting.

And in view of the direction the conversation is turning, I thought I'd pass this along.

Lolo's Baked Vegan Donuts

Ingredients:
1 cup all-purpose flour
1/2 cup sugar
1 1/2 teaspoons baking powder
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp nutmeg
1 shake of cinnamon (I was out of nutmeg, so I used all cinnamon & more than a shake!)
1/2 cup soymilk
1/2 teaspoon apple cider vinegar
1/2 teaspoon vanilla
Egg replacer for 1 egg (I used Ener-G Egg Replacer.)
4 tablespoons Earth Balance or other vegan margarine

Instructions:
Preheat oven to 350ยบ F.

In a large bowl, combine dry ingredients with a whisk to mix thoroughly.

In a small saucepan, combine wet ingredients over medium low heat & mix until margarine is melted. You should be able to stick your finger in the mixture without burning yourself. Don't make this too hot for the dough!

Add wet to dry & mix until just combined, forming a soft spongy dough.

Using a tablespoon measure, scoop out dough into an ungreased nonstick mini donut pan & smooth out the tops of them. If using a regular sized donut pan (like I did), fill them until just below the rim. Make sure not to overfill them or they'll have uneven muffin tops. If you under fill them, they'll be skimpy, but still edible.

Bake them for 12 minutes or until a tester comes out clean.

Invert the hot pan over a cooling rack to release the donuts & allow them to cool completely before decorating.

This will yield 20 mini donuts or 6 to 8 large donuts.
If you don't have a donut pan, you can bake them as donut holes in the bottom of a mini muffin pan or make fun shapes in those molded silicone pans!

Yankee Frugality: use it up, wear it out, make it last, or do without.


we were vegan (not by choice) (4.00 / 3)
But because it made more sense financially. We were vegetarian for so long, just got use to not buying meat or diary. Then we moved into a simple rustic-like lifestyle, with no refrigerator. Being anything but a vegan was not an option. And honestly, it was quite easy. We were vegan for almost 1 year, and didn't even notice it. We were then handed down a chest freezer, that we hooked up to a timer, so it stays cool like a refrigerator. We've let go of our vegetarian ways, and said goodbye to a vegan diet. We're now chopping off rooster heads, fishing on the weekends, and butchering wild pigs from time to time.

... OH MY GOD! How did we go so long without cheese???


[ Parent ]
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