Predatory Dairy Pricing Puts Real Organic Farmers at Risk

Re: Cornucopia's Dairy Scorecard... (4.00 / 3)

I'm gonna take issue with Noris at '0', based solely upon this -

Unwilling to share any information about their operation after numerous attempts by registered mail and phone

They're a small farm who distributes almost exclusively through the co-ops here in Portland, and at a couple farmers markets.  They also use returnable glass bottles -

I think Cornucopia whiffed on that one, sorry...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:11:55 AM UTC

you oughta email that info (4.00 / 3)

to Cornucopia!

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:22:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Think so? (4.00 / 3)

I'm thinking maybe they just ignored Cornucopia.

Gonna try to put this 'lightly' - some in the farming community have been known to be sort of, shall we say 'libertarian'?  I'm thinking Joel Salatin here, amongst others.  Including some at the area farmers markets here...

They may just not want to have anything to do with Cornucopia, or any other institute?

You know who may be familiar with them here?  Maybe Joanne Rigutto.  I'll try to remember to ask her next time she's around...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:31:35 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I think the peanut butter people (4.00 / 3)

also would have liked not to have anything to do with institutes, or the government, or inspections, or watchdogs. Beware romaticizing here.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:34:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well... (4.00 / 3)

Cornucopia isn't the federal government, though; and the co-ops here wouldn't carry their products if they weren't at least open with them.

But good point.

I'll ask around though, and see what I can find out...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:40:18 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

from my point of view (4.00 / 3)

the fact that Cornucopia isn't the government is that much more reason to take them seriously. Sure, it's not legally mandated to be inspected by them. But somehow I just don't have a warm and fuzzy feeling about the efficacy of the government inspection of food products that is legally mandated. And when a private organization whose raison d'etre is to promote the organic food business in a responsible manner wants to talk to you, I say you oughtta at least return their phone calls.

I'll be interested in hearing what the locals have to say, and thanks for taking the time to look into it.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:57:42 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

not much point (4.00 / 2)

if Noris is ignoring them. They already know that.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:33:26 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I was reading Cornucopia's site (4.00 / 3)

awhile back, about a brand that we used to be able to get here (no more, alas) and they wrote that the dairy establishment in question used to rate a 1 but had picked up and opened to their inspection and now had a 4 and that they were very proud of them for their improvement.

if Noris won't allow inspection by watchdog organizations, or even return their communications, without explanation, one can only wonder why, returnable bottles notwithstanding. I hope they change their minds. It is only to their benefit to do so.


"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:32:45 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

It may be... (4.00 / 3)

a "keep your nose out of my business" kinda thing?

And who knows what the original contact was like?  Maybe an intern or something rubbed somebody at the farm the wrong way?

I mean, their products are carried at my food co-op (People's), which has very strict standards as to what products they will and will not carry.  Same goes for the other co-ops here.  And a local coffee roaster at the big Saturday PSU farmers market uses Noris cream and milk exclusively at their stand, as well...

They're probably willing to work with local customers, but when it comes to national organizations they probably don't see the need to bother with them?

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:38:08 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

perhaps you could (4.00 / 2)

ask the dairy buyer at People's about this? Producers are often really chatty with buyers. But in any case, a producer that will not allow inspections is a producer that is at least acting like someone who has something to hide. And, dairy buyers aren't, as a rule, prone to taking on the role of dairy inspector.

Hell, I sell tomatoes and squash to the locals at times, and if they wanted to come look at my yard, I wouldn't dream of saying no. I'm asking them to pay me to put something I produced into their body; what right do I have to say no?  

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:48:14 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Good points... (4.00 / 3)

Yeah, I will try to see what I can find out.

Thanks...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:54:12 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

re: libertarianism (4.00 / 3)

I do want to say that I understand what you're suggesting here - maybe the farm owner is some eccentric person who is deeply suspicious of strange humans and meanwhile loves his cattle so much that he knits their calves individual Christmas booties so they won't get their little feet cold in the winter - perfectly plausible (and no snark intended). But that doesn't mean the Cornucopia Institute has any obligation to change their rules for such a person. Ideally, someone like that would be able to work with such a watchdog via a friendly intermediary.  

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 01:20:56 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

thank you so much (4.00 / 3)

for posting this, Jill. It's quite creepy to hear what Horizon is up to, not to mention that they're invading my state. This warrants a total boycott of their products.

I'm about ready to start making yogurt now (with OV milk). I had heard you needed dry milk as an ingredient, but I read a few reviews of my Salton yogurt maker (I bought it used and there were no instructions), and I see that you are supposed to use a couple teaspoons of live yogurt (unflavored, just plain, sugars kill the bacteria) as culture, and about a quart of milk. If you use UHT (ultra high temperature, ultra-pasteurized) milk you don't have to boil it first, and one of the reviewers pointed out that if you have a warm kitchen, you don't need a Salton yogurt maker either, although they get good reviews as a sturdy, if simple, device.

It was interesting reading about UHT milk - I already knew that it was flash-sterilized at 160oF and regular pasteurized milk a little cooler and longer, but I had not heard that UHT sterilizes it so well (kills everything) that you can store it unrefrigerated (if unopened) up to six months. (here's a link:)  

http://www.sciam.com/article.c...

All organic milk tends to be sold UHT because it is lower-demand and needs longer shelf life. I guess they keep it refrigerated in the stores because people would freak out otherwise? So are the six week expiration dates fake to make them look more plausible? Intriguing questions.

Also you can't make cheese out of it because the proteins are affected, and it's sweeter because the sugars are affected. Apparently just fine for a yogurt base with a good live culture. Learn something new every day.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 00:44:22 AM UTC

I bought a gallon of organic milk today. (4.00 / 4)

It bore the Sassy Cow label and came from a Wisconsin farm about 50-60 miles south of us.  Price was $5.99 vs. $7.49 for a gallon of Organic Valley milk (both gallons were skim milk).  Normally I buy Organic Valley, but a $1.50 difference?  I really don't understand that.

Joel Salatin really is a libertarian - he believes we would be better off with much reduced government intervention, that small farmers like him could do a much better job of marketing fresh, safe, healthy foods because they - the farmers - are in direct contact with their customers and would immediately bear the burden of any illness (lost sales, lost revenues, lost reputation).

But he has had so many bad experiences with regulators from USDA, FDA, and state authorities in Virginia that he automatically dislikes gov't reg'n. After reading several of his books - including Everything I Want to Do is Illegal - I don't blame him one bit.  But the problem of course is regulations are written by and for large commecial operations, and are intended to stifle the small farmer.  I marvel sometimes that small farmers manage to soldier on.  Joel, of course, is a livestock farmer, not a vegetable grower.

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by: DennisP @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:18:30 AM UTC

way to go on getting the local (4.00 / 3)

stuff. I used to do that too in WI - and local yogurt!!!

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:45:41 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yes... (4.00 / 2)

Agree with everything you've said about Joel Salatin, and I don't blame him either.

Especially when it comes to this -

But the problem of course is regulations are written by and for large commecial operations, and are intended to stifle the small farmer.

Frankly, I agree with him close to 100% on that - which is the reason why I'm such a strong supporter of local growers and producers wherever I live; whether back in North Jersey a few years ago, or here in Portland now.

But his libertarian arguments fall apart at a point.  And that point is that, as much as I'd like it to, the industrial food system isn't going away anytime soon.  And they can't be trusted.

A system like that would prove disastrous in the real world, because not every businessperson has ethics like Joel Salatin.  Upton Sinclair wrote about that over 100 years ago...

There's definitely a middle ground, but we need honest brokers to figure out what that is.

......................

And when it comes to milk?  Honestly, on current prices I'm as clueless as George HW Bush was as he marveled over the supermarket scanner a couple decades ago, lol...

I can't even remember the last time I bought milk for drinking?  Years and years ago...

I always use half & half in my coffee though, and heavy cream for my cheese sauces and omelets...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:46:04 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

cream in omelettes? (4.00 / 2)

It's funny how up people can get about this one - omelette eggs shouldn't have anything added, they should have only water added, some milk is okay, any milk is wrong because that's custard.

I've never tried heavy cream, though. I think that puts you definitely in the custard camp. What do you use for the filling, 70% chocolate? And lord only knows what you get up to when you make crepes...I'm getting hungry...

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:01:06 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Lol... (4.00 / 2)

I've never known them to be done any other way? :)

I guess we all get set in our own ways, heh.

Sometimes I mix in a bit of sour cream, too...

I don't cook by recipe, I basically just keep things in my head and wing it most times, but here's how I do my omelets -

I crack 2 or 3 eggs (depends on my mood) in a cup, pour in a couple dashes of cream, whip it for a few seconds with a fork, heat up some olive oil in the pan on medium, dump the eggs and cream in about a minute later; as soon as the bottom kinda sets a bit and the top part is still somewhat liquidy, I add the cheese and salt and pepper (and sometimes greens or mushrooms or onions or garlic, but only rarely) over one half, let that sit for another minute and then very carefully reach the fork under one side and flip it in half quickly, take it off the heat and let it sit for another minute or so to let the cheese melt.

Slide it right off the pan onto the plate!

Here's what they look like, I took this shot at breakfast yesterday -

Want me to make you one?  :)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:56:23 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I started out adding milk to eggs (4.00 / 2)

for omelettes, and then ran across an anti-milk friend, and so I thought I'd try them without milk for awhile.

I used to mostly cook the eggs before I put in anything else, and then flip, and then flip again, until I ran into another friend who would put in the other ingredients when the eggs were just a little cooked, so they'd sink in a bit, so I got into trying it that way. And some of the cheese on the top at the end.

Also, I started out learning that eggs should be cooked at a very low heat, or else they'd get tough, but some of the aforementioned people taught me to try cooking them on quite a bit hotter heat, which browns them much better.

Somewhere in the middle of all of this I learned about country scramble, where you saute all the vegetables, then put in the eggs and spice, then top with cheese.

Recently I learned about putting in a little dried tarragon along with the vegetables, cheese, salt & pepper, which is also quite nice.

And yes, I always want people to make me one. Doesn't everybody?

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:27:21 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Is that what that's called? (4.00 / 2)

Somewhere in the middle of all of this I learned about country scramble, where you saute all the vegetables, then put in the eggs and spice, then top with cheese.

Heh, I stumbled across that almost by mistake one day!  I was sauteeing some mushrooms and onions for probably some rice or something like that; when I got an idea to break a couple of eggs onto the mushrooms and onions while they were cooking.

Worked out great!  I do that all the time now.  I never knew there was an actual name for that, lol...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:50:58 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

they called it that (4.00 / 2)

at the diner I used to eat lunch at when I was managing the health food store. They were right across the street and I'd go hang out there a lot midday, since I was working from early morning to sometimes well into the evening lots of days. I figured the midday staff could survive the afternoon traffic while I was gone :-) Otherwise, I just couldn't tear myself away. Nothing like managing a peculiarly designed, cooperatively run health food store, with obsessive health food freaks and militant organic people as custom, in a somewhat dicey, ghettoish neighborhood; to really work out your OCD! Oh, there's a diary in that! If not more than one.

Speaking of food transparency, those places where the grill is behind the counter are really underrated. Built-in customer inspection!

Back to omelettes - I also started out doing them in butter, but the same people who gave me all the other ideas about how to do it moved me on to olive oil. I guess the butter was substituting for the heavy cream?

I use EV olive oil for all of my vegetable sauteeing as well, though I use canola to (lightly) fry tortillas for enchiladas. I didn't like the EVOO taste in the tortillas in the enchiladas - it was a bit much.

I recently tried doing my vegetable enchiladas with some Neufchatel in the filling, instead of just Monterey jack. Wow, is that good! Enchilada custard!

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:08:49 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Yeah, same here! (4.00 / 2)

Back to omelettes - I also started out doing them in butter, but the same people who gave me all the other ideas about how to do it moved me on to olive oil.

Lol, I just switched to olive oil a couple years ago.  Much better, imo...

I only used butter because that's the way my father used to do it.  He was the cook in the family, and he's Polish; so that meant butter on, in and around everything, lol...

He also did omelets a different way, which is the way I started out until I learned a better way - he would do them the same as I do up until adding the toppings.  He'd sprinkle the topping down the middle, and then sort of slice the omelet from the edges 1/3 of the way through the middle with a spatula and flip it over itself that way.

Kinda hard to explain, but they came out almost rectangular-shaped.

I like my current method way better, but to be honest when I first learned how to do it?  The thing that appealed most to me was being able to do everything just with the fork and not have to use and wash a spatula!  Lol...

Speaking of food transparency, those places where the grill is behind the counter are really underrated. Built-in customer inspection!

Oh, I loved those places.  I grew up in New Jersey.  Land of the Diner! :)

I also had a few great meals in a couple places like that in Idaho, Utah and Wyoming over the past couple of years.  A little place in Roseburg, Oregon too.

The ingredients were probably shit, and I suppose I knew that intellectually - but the food does kinda taste better when you can actually see what's being done with it...

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:31:38 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

re: omelettes (4.00 / 2)

and we will note that you spell it omelets, and that both are correct spellings. Variants. Just wanted to point that out.

Yeah, I've had omelettttteees made with the flipping from both edges way. I think all of this pretty much makes it clear that omelettes are so good that you can invent tons of ways to do them and they are all, all good.

Re: diners, I don't know whether the food tastes better when you can see the cooks, but at least they're less likely to spit in the food :-)

Wow, writing to you about the co-op got me inspired to blog about it. Maybe I'll do more if people like it. I still want to keep writing about gardening though.  

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:50:03 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Ooooh, thanks! :) (4.00 / 2)

I see your diary!

Btw - have I ever told you how much I love your writing? :)

Gonna head across the way to pick up a beer right now, and read your diary as soon as I get back in.

Be back in 5!

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:04:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

yeah, you have (4.00 / 2)

and I appreciate the hell out of it. I am not the stablest person in the world, and I need to write and I need people to tell me I'm wonderful. Thank you kindly. I don't forget.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:20:39 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

You're wonderful. :) (4.00 / 2)

I'll tell you again and again; and I wouldn't say that if I didn't mean it.

You are an awesome writer, and I look forward to hearing as many stories as you're willing to share.

Your contributions to this community are priceless.

Thank you, Miep.

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:37:31 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

thank you again (4.00 / 3)

you're helping me to look forward to things. I needed that. Been kind of fucked up these last several years. This blogging thing is helping a lot.

it's funny how the orange monster has led into a lot of good directions. I feel like I must go pay my dues there again, sooner or later. Like going back to a big city where there's even more friends you miss, but a whole bunch of bullshit as well. Like some kind of terrible novel in which one is irredeemably a character, but stalwart! Strong!

Meanwhile, it's nice here. The weather is so pleasant, and the snakes are all friendly, and the holes to hole up in, only a tiny bit damp.

Good place to practice. They don't hit me here. That's good.

Meanwhile, Yeats put it well, about the fight:

"An aged man is but a paltry thing,
A tattered coat upon a stick, unless
Soul clap its hands and sing, and louder sing"

and Thomas;

"Do not go gentle into that good night,
Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
Rage, rage against the dying of the light."

I'm neither ancient, nor male, but it's good to get a jump on these things, I think.


"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:10:40 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Same here... :) (4.00 / 3)

I've had a rough couple years myself.  It's good to be amongst friends.  I now count you as one of them, I hope that's reciprocal...

:)

Do you go there to dKos often?  You don't have to answer if you don't want to of course - but what's your name over on dKos?  Same thing?  Not sure if I've ever seen you there?

I'm Hardhat Democrat over there.  I hate that name, and would change it to JayinPortland (my name everywhere else) in a second, but I don't want to start over again with a new (would be like my fourth!) user id.  How pathetic is that?  Lol...

Besides, I already have a somewhat decent following over there whenever I post something.  Not anything like Jill or AAF yet, but I'm working up to that.  :)

You'll have many friends over there too, btw.  And if anybody 'hits you' over there, and I see it?  I'll give at least twice as good as you get... :)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:34:30 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm mieprowan over there (4.00 / 3)

I commented a lot there from September until recently and blogged a bit (and a bit disjointedly at times). I don't mean to put down the site, it's just a very different pace and overwhelming at times, and easier to get into fights with people partly because there's so many people you don't know, people misunderstand things, and it all goes so fast.

I don't see anything wrong with your dKos user name. It has a nice proletarian ring to it, really. And yes, name recognition is important. And though I easily get the Democrats and Dems confused, yours stands out fairly well.

I did note that you have been having your own trials, from a few comments you made. I feel for you. Sometimes I guess one has to just try to see the past as something that doesn't necessarily involve either anyone being to blame, or anything making any sense. It's too easy to dwell on such things and better to find a productive distraction, as anyone will readily tell one.

Advice is overrated, IMHO. Most of it is generic and obvious. Occasionally people can give you a good tip. What's most underrated, I think, is simply telling people "I'm really sorry you've been having such a hard time." It sounds so facile, and can seem so when one is saying it, but it always seems to mean something when someone says it to one's own self, doesn't it?

So...I'm really sorry you've been having such a hard time, Jay. And I hope things pick up for you soon, and even more hope they have already started. It can take awhile.


"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 06:50:45 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Thanks... :) (4.00 / 3)

Whenever I see you over there, I'll be sure to remember to say "hi"...

And thank you for your kind words.

I'm personally having a hard time right now believing that things will ever pick up; but thanks.

:)

I'm sorry you've been having a rough time yourself, Miep.

If you ever need a friend, somebody to talk to...

You know where to look, I'll always be around.

:)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Fri Feb 20, 2009 at 07:03:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

libertarianism is cheaper up front (4.00 / 3)

no doubt about that. But when acted out as a philosophy it does create an environment that creates the potential for abusers to use it as a smoke screen for unethical behaviors. Libertarianism itself must address this problem, if it should ever succeed (along with a number of other ones outside the scope of this discussion). I don't doubt that libertarians consider themselves quite capable of doing so.

The argument that businesses will behave ethically because they lose money if they don't, falls apart at some level. It is difficult to draw lines as to where - at what size of business. It didn't work out with banking, it doesn't work out with fossil fuel mining.

Also, illnesses don't all present immediately. Should we give up any concerns about food grown on toxic soil? Should we assume all farmers have the expertise to understand all the factors that are affecting the environments they work with?

In any case, I'm rather with Salatin about the government, in some ways. But I do think transparency is important. One argument is that people should be allowed to trust whom they want to trust. Another is that there are people who are really good at getting people to trust them, even though they are snakes. And the third and perhaps most important one is that growing food is a complex, delicate business, especially in an increasingly toxic and unstable world, and people should be opening to accepting input from people with other sorts of expertise.

None of this really has anything to do with the government. Your argument suggests that it's the rules of inspections themselves that are the problem, being geared towards large operations. That sounds like the sort of inflexible, inappropriate things governments do, which is why it's of interest to me when people say the heck with all that and start their own inspection committees that are not dependent on tax dollars, and hence cannot be affected by corporate lobbying.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 02:57:25 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

It's funny... (4.00 / 4)

that you and Jay brought up a lot of complicated issues that I didn't bother to discuss but which make the issue of how (or if) to use government a difficult one to resolve.  More difficult than Salatin apparently recognizes.  And which gives rise to many (sometimes quite heated) arguments over the role of government. I didn't say that I agree with Salatin, only that I understood where he was coming from, given his experiences.  

Anyway, thanks for another good post.

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by: DennisP @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 04:59:37 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

you're very welcome (4.00 / 2)

and I think it's important to discuss the libertarian standpoint, as it has much that is attractive. And I did not think that you were a hardline libertarian at all.

I think there are some things better managed on a national basis, but for many other things more decentralization would be better. Disaster, health and poverty insurance should be nationalized, and should not be subjected to the "for profit" motivation. They should not be run like capitalist businesses, because capitalist businesses are not generally run with the best interests of the populace in mind. They are run to make a profit.

Also federal taxes should pay to take care of nation-wide physical infrastructure (like highways). I'd also be very happy to see education have a much bigger federal tax base under it, and science. When we look at medicine, this latter is especially important, since right now we're dealing with medical journals having to rely on advertising (greatly from pharmaceutical companies) in order to publish. I don't think medical journals (JAMA, New England Journal) should have any advertising at all. They should have federal funding and it should not have strings attached. It is in all of our best interest for the editors of these journals to be comfortable publishing the best work available, not the work that's least likely to encourage their advertisers to pull their ads until everybody forgets about that negative study that just came out about one of their latest greatest new drugs or devices. Even the people in the medical business admit this is a problem.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:17:55 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

The Cornucopia Institute's mission statement (4.00 / 3)

"Seeking economic justice for the family-scale farming community. Through research, advocacy, and economic development our goal is to empower farmers - partnered with consumers - in support of ecologically produced local, organic and authentic food."

Just for the record. It's an interesting site and includes a political food blog. www.cornucopia.org

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 03:27:45 AM UTC

Memory Lane in Fordland MO is an organic dairy selling bottled (glass) milk (4.00 / 5)

locally in the area. The bottles have a $1.50 deposit. As I understand it was started with a grant someone wrote.

Now may I suggest that you put the info out there that these other dairys can do the same thing. Why not? If they need grant money then a grant needs to be written. Local libraries often have grant writing workshops every month.

In our area their milk goes really fast. Even the discount grocers carry it at full price. They sell just about all their milk at almost retail price.

Fuck the factory milk. They also color it white to look more like milk after they process it, take out the cream etc. And when you get used to good milk you can certainly taste the difference.

Or individuals can find a local Amish farm (no one messes with them about selling it) and get your milk from them. Long ago in upstate PA we used to buy our meat from them.

I also want to write here about the North American Red Devon cattle that are being bred and sold by just a few ranchers in the country. Have you heard of this animal? It is really special.

And I am sure that if you contacted Memory Lane they could help someone get started.

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by: abbeysbooks @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:14:09 AM UTC

I hope you do! (4.00 / 3)

I also want to write here about the North American Red Devon cattle that are being bred and sold by just a few ranchers in the country.

I'm very much looking forward to your writing on that!

:)

Fuck the factory milk.

Heh, that's like a ready-made sigline!  I just may use that one day... :)

"The essence of the independent mind lies not in what it thinks, but in how it thinks." - Christopher Hitchens

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by: JayinPortland @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 05:43:54 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

you sell books? (4.00 / 4)

I sell books too, a little at least. Hi!

I just posted a diary here about when I worked for a cooperatively run health food/organic food store, back around 1990. Back then we sold milk in thick returnable glass bottles. Returnable bottles and returnable crates in which the milk was delivered. All very heavy, and $1 deposit on the bottles at the time, and I think maybe $5 on the crates. We would pass on the bottle deposit to the customers. Sometimes they just bought the bottles instead of bringing them back; they were very nice bottles.

We had to devote a certain amount of space to stash the crates and empty bottles, we had to devote a little extra time to dealing with all these ins and outs of bottles, crates, deliveries, deposits. A little extra bookkeeping with the deposits. You don't get any of that with milk in plastic bottles. Just in and out with those.

What we got back in return were customers who thought this was just the greatest thing, they loved being involved with it, they loved the ritual of the bottles. We got milk that held a little better because the bottles were so thick, and like you say; better milk; from small farmers who care.

We got to spend a little more time interacting with each other, because of all this messing around with the bottles and the crates. We got to grow our shoulder muscles a little stronger, too.

What's not to like?

It wasn't sold as organic milk. I can't remember the brand name right now, though it's on the tip of my tongue. The national USDA organic label wasn't around then, it was before that.

The Cornucopia Institute is working on policing people who sell things under the organic label, which is federally defined, but perhaps not all that well done...I think what they care about most is people hustling the public with that label when they are really not doing things all that much better than anybody else. But dairies (and everybody else) can get organic certified USDA if they jump through the hoops.

I am getting the sense that we are back where we were about 1990 when I was working at the Co-op, and everybody trying to sort this stuff out so it would be real, and not just co-opted by the big corporations. It was happening then all the time; we'd have good brands we were selling and they'd get bought out by huge companies, over and over again. And there was great conflict about defining the USDA organic label.

All for naught? I fear so sometimes. Even back then, almost 20 years now, people were saying we should leave big government out of organic. Perhaps the chickens have come home to roost.

Thanks for posting.

"If God were to appear to starving people, he would not dare to appear in any other form than food." - Mahatma Gandhi

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by: Miep @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 06:41:57 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Hi, good to see you over here! (4.00 / 2)

my "happy cow" pics are Amish cows :)

"I can understand someone from Iowa promoting corn and soy, but we are not feeding the world, we are feeding animals and soft drink companies." - Jim Goodman

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by: Jill Richardson @ Thu Feb 19, 2009 at 07:10:42 AM UTC

[ Parent ]